Chatsworth Train Accident
August 10, 1887

TESTIMONY.

THOS. P. LISTON, RECALLED.

Mr. Liston, being recalled, and examined by Commissioner Rinaker, testified as follows:

Q. Are you the station agent at this place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were you on the evening of the 10th? A. I was in my office.
Q. Did you have any conversation with anybody about the light that was on the track? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody there that evening, that there was no train coming from the East, and that it had stopped at Gilman? A. I have no recollection of it.
Q. Do you recollect of your attention being called to a head-light East of here? A. No, sir. It is possible that my attention was called to the train from Gilman.
Q. Do you recollect a man by the name of Jones? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recollect that he wanted to go West? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recollect talking with him about him seeing a head-light? A. I have no recollection of any such a conversation.
Q. Would you say you didn't tell him that? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recollect talking with him about the freight train at all? A. No, sir, I do not. I was very busy all evening, and wasn't out but once, except when the train came.
Q. What did you go out for? A. To check Mr. Brown's trunk.
Q. Did you hear any talking about the fire? A. No, sir, I don't think I did.
Q. Did you hear Mr. Hallam's testimony? A. No, sir.
Q. He said he heard you say to somebody that no freight train was coming from the East, that the freight train had stopped at Gilman. A. It is very probable that I told him that.
Q. Do you mean to be understood as saying that nobody called your attention to the fact that there was a light upon the track? A. I do, sir.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You say you were in the office pretty near all evening? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Selling Tickets? A. Not selling; I was selling them and making them. I made some tickets and gave them to Mr. Armstrong.
Q. How many tickets did you sell here? A. Six.
Q. Then you made some more? A. I made fourteen more that evening.
Q. How long did it take you to make those tickets and sell six? A. I kept making them and talking to Gilman. At first they only wanted one; then three, and then all I had.
Q. From 9 until 11 you were selling and making tickets and very busily engaged? A. I was telegraphing back and forth with Gilman and Peoria.
Q. How many times did you telegraph to Gilman? A. Probably half a dozen times.
Q. How many times to Peoria? A. Probably three or four times.
Q. You heard nobody talk about this fire down there? A. No, sir, I did not.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Did you get one of those dispatches? (Exhibits dispatch same as shown to Mr. Mason at Piper City.) A. Something- similar to that.
Q. The dispatch would be the same at all the stations? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your dispatch would be like the one at Piper City? A. It ought to be.
Q. What day did you receive that dispatch? A. I remember getting it a day or two after the date.
Q. Do you remember the day of the coroner's investigation—that was Tuesday, the 16th? A. I think it was. I didn't get it on the 10th.
Q. Didn't you get it the day before the coroner's investigation? A. I couldn't say.
Q. Have you any record in your office? A. Yes, sir, a copy of the message.
Q. Have you marked on the message the day you received it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you find it? A. It would take some little time.
Q. If Piper City got it on the 15th, so did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I will get you to look at that date. (Exhibits dispatch.) A. It's the 10th.
Q. Was any explanation given to you at anytime as to why it was sent on that day? A. No, sir, I have heard it since.
Q. Since when? A. I heard it this afternoon.
Q. Was there any other dispatch went with that same tenor in regard to looking for fires? A. Yes, sir, I received two messages on the 10th.
Q. Like this? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you receive any on the 10th, in reference to watching carefully for fires burning, etc.? A. No, sir, I did not. I received one for all section foremen, and all station agents.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Was that in reference to fires? A. To examine the bridges and track, and see that everything was O. K., and to see that cars were clear of the main track, and brakes set, and switches in proper shape for the main track.
Q. What was the date? A. 10th.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. When did you receive this message—what did you do with it? A. I put it on file, and told all the business men that were near the track.
Q. Communicate it to any of the section men? A. No, sir.
[Mr. Stevens objected to this message being brought into the evidence, as it had nothing whatever to do with the matter under consideration, and was sent after the wreck. The objection was sustained, but inasmuch as it appeared in the record in the examination of Mr. Mason, Mr. E. N. Armstrong was called to explain it.]

MR. ARMSTRONG, RECALLED.

By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Take that paper (hands him dispatch) and tell us what the facts are about it. A. A message similar to this was prepared on the 10th. I received from our agent at Chenoa a notice from the President of the Trustees there, to put on a night watchman to watch for fires. I ordered that watchman put on, and then wrote this message to all stations. This message was written on the 10th; I think the date is correct, and I presume it was hung on the hook in the evening. A good many of these offices are not night offices, and it was not sent out the next day owing to the crowded conditioned of the wires. This message has no connection with the track, but is simply a message to look out for burning fires.
Q. Had it any reference to this excursion train? A. Nothing in the least.
Q. Do you know any reason why it was not sent on the 10th? A. Because it was written late in the evening, and could not get to all these offices, because some of them are not night offices. It simply refers to burning at our stations.
By Mr. Stevens—Q. What was the condition of the business over your wires after the accident? A. They were busy all the time. We neglected our own business for the benefit of that.
Q. You know what you prepared it for? A. Yes, sir. I didn't think the people of Chenoa had any authority to order me to put on a night watchman, but I did it, and then cautioned all agents to look out for fires.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. You prepared this yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was intended to mean inside the station limits? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why didn't you say so? A. We write a good many dispatches.
Q. It is not necessary to do it? A. Not necessarily.
Q. When you say something with reference to fires burning, they will understand that it means inside the station? A. If it is directed to an agent, he will only go in his own jurisdiction.
Q. You say you prepared it on the 10th. A. I think I did.
Q. Who hung it on the hook? A. I could not tell you.
Q. To whom did you hand it? A. If I wrote it myself. I would probably have handed it to the boy that answered the bell.
Q. Did I understand you to say you wrote it? A. I may have dictated it to a stenographer.
Q. Do you sometimes write them yourself? A. I sometimes do.
Q. Who is the stenographer? A. F. M. Benning.
Q. Where is the original? A. On file in the office, I presume.
Q. Have you seen it since you wrote it? A. If I wrote it myself, I did.
Q. Was that the last you saw of it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you know it was hung on the hook? A. I didn't say it was.
Q. Didn't you say it was hung on the hook? A. No, sir.
Q. You paid no further attention to it after you had prepared it? A. No, sir.
Q. Who is the operator? A. Mr. Mason is the chief operator.
Q. To whom would it go? A. Whoever was on duty.
Q. Who was likely on duty at that time? A. Probably Mr. Plantz.
Q. Is there anybody else that you know of that might have been on duty? A. Any one of the five men.
Q. Some one of them must have received it the 10th? A. I presume so, yes, sir.
Q. There is no question about that? A. Reasonably, no.
Q. Do you know of any reason why they should hold a dispatch of that kind— why they should hold it for five days? A. I have given reasons for that.
Q. You are simply guessing at the reasons? A. I didn't put it so.
Q. That's the fact about it? A. I wasn't in the office all the lime.
Q. If you paid no attention to it, you are simply guessing at why it was retained; you know of no other reason except that the wires were very busy? A. No, sir. It is simply a cautionary message to agents to look out for burning fires.

FRANK OSBORN.

Mr. Osborn, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. Do you agree with the other witnesses that saw the light? A. Yes, sir.

JULIUS KOEPKE.

Mr. Koepke, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. Julius Koepke.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Nearly Southeast of here.
Q. Farmer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. Seven years.
Q. How near the railroad do you live? A. Half a mile.
Q. Which way? A. South of the railroad.
Q. How far from the bridge that was burned? A. About a mile and three-quarters.
Q. Which direction from that? A. Southwest.
Q. Were you on the train that got wrecked? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see fire on the railroad that afternoon or night? A. That night my girl called my attention to the fire.
Q. What time? A. About 9 o'clock.
Q. Is the ground level between your house and the railroad? A. No, sir.
Q. Hilly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was the light you saw? A. In the same direction as the bridge.
Q. How much of a light was it? A. Looked just like a head-light.
Q. Bright light? A. Not very bright. Looked like a glass that was not cleaned very well.
Q. How long did you notice that? A. About half an hour.
Q. Did it get any brighter? A. No, sir.
Q. What time did you go to bed? A. About half past 9.
Q. Did you hear of the accident that night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time? A. About 2 o'clock.
Q. Did you go over there? A. I started but it commenced to rain.
Q. Did you go the next morning? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't get there until daylight the next morning? A. No, sir, not until daylight.
Q. When you got there you helped do all that you could? A. Yes, sir.

Springfield, Illinois, September 1st, 1887.

E. N. ARMSTRONG, RECALLED.

Mr. Armstrong, being recalled at his own instance, was examined by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. Mr. Armstrong, you say you want to explain the dispatch spoken of by Mr. Niehaus in regard to fires, which bears date of August 10th, and appears to have been communicated to the agent at Piper City on the 15th of August. If so you may make such explanation as to the original, and the communication of that dispatch to the agents, as you see fit to make. A. The dispatch originated in consequence of a message from the agent at Chenoa, which reads as follows:
"Chenoa, August 10th.
To E. N. Armstrong:—City authorities served notice on me to have a man in yard when all trains pass, and watch for fires. Wells are dry, no protection in case of fire. Most every train has started fire the past week.
"Received 3:40 P.M., August 10th. Signed, G. W. L."

At 4:33 P.M. of the same day, the following answer was made:
"G. W. L., Chenoa:—Arrange for your men to watch for fire in day time, and you may hire a man temporarily at not over 125.00 per month to watch at nights. Watch our property especially; also elevators.
Signed, E. N. Armstrong."

On my way out that night with the Niagara Falls excursion, thinking I was to be gone several days, and thinking of what I had left undone that might be of good to the service, I got off at Forrest, and wrote the following message there:

"Forrest, August 10th.
To J. Q. Mason, Peoria:—Send all offices message to agents to watch for fires during the dry weather spell, watch our buildings carefully, and caution elevator men to watch theirs. Signed, E. N. Armstrong."
Q. Who is J. Q. Mason? A. He is my chief train dispatcher at Peoria. That message was sent to Peoria at 11 P.M., August 10th. In the files at Peoria, I find the following copy of the foregoing. Time as having been received at 10:58 P.M. Probably a difference in the time of the clocks at Peoria and Forrest. Also the following in Mr. Mason's writing, dated Peoria, August 10th:
"To all agents East and West: Watch carefully for fires during the dry weather, and caution elevator people to do the same in regard to their property.
Signed, E. N. Armstrong."
The back bears evidence of having been sent to all the offices along the line at different times, but does not say what date it was sent. I find in calling in copies of this message from different stations that some received it on the 11ith, some the 12th, some the 14th, and some the 15th. I find that the message sent to Piper City has been in some way "bulled." This message was received by the agent at Piper City on the 15th, and reads—"Watch carefully for fires burning this dry weather, and caution all people to do the same in regard to their property." This is the only one I find "bulled" in the lot.
Q. You said some were delivered earlier than the 15th? A. Yes, sir, that appears here. The reason the message was delayed, was on account of the heavy telegraphing in consequence of the wreck. It made lots of extra work in the office, and this message was hung on the hook, and they worked them off the best they could.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. There has been a good deal said about this head­light interfering with the engineer in seeing the light ahead. What is your opinion? A. I am not an expert. My opinion would be that the light would have to be very strong of that color. You would see a red light when you wouldn't see that light —the light of that fire. You can see a man with a red coat on through smoke, when you cannot see another one at all. My opinion about that fire is, that it had burned down; the blaze was all down, and it was not making much light—not as much as it was before or afterwards, and putting this car over it made a draft, and it burned more. I have ridden thousands of miles on an engine.
Q. What would be your opinion if you stopped twice at Chatsworth, first at the crossing and then at the platform, would the air brakes be in a condition to stop suddenly after that? A. I will answer that in this way: you can set the air brakes in a train twice with the air that is stored in the reservoir. You turn the cock in the engine and set the brake, then you release the brake by reversing the three-way cock, and then you can immediately set it again without waiting for the pump to act on the cylinder. After that time it would take on a train of that size probably fifteen or eighteen seconds to pump it up again to the maximum pressure. Then you are in a condition to work the brakes again just as you started.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Take its condition at Chatsworth. A. At the time we left the station at Chatsworth those reservoirs would he pumped full to their capacity.
Q. Do you know whether they were? A. I know they were, because the brakes at the time the engineer in the front engine shut off'—because the brakes on the hind car were set solid, so I know the brakes were set on the train.
Q. Could they be set that way if the reservoir was not full at Chatsworth? A. They might pump it full between Chatsworth and there. The pump is acting all the time, and is a separate engine from the locomotive. The valve is set at 75 pounds pressure.
Q. It would be then, in running, necessarily full all the time? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Have you any knowledge—experimental knowledge—of the time required on a train of that length to apply the full force of the air brakes? A. It would not make any difference whether the train was that length or not; it is instantaneous to set the brake going, and applies to every car at once. With a train of fifteen cars going at thirty-five miles an hour, the air brake working in first class condition, the first five seconds after the brake is applied, it would not reduce the speed of that train two miles an hour.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. If there had been one engine with five cars could it have been stopped easier and quicker? A. No, sir. it could not have been. You can stop one with an air brake as quick as you can ten.

C. C. F. BENT.

Mr. Bent, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. I.ee, and testified as follows:

Q. Mr. Bent, will you please state your occupation? A. Superintendent of the Ohio & Mississippi Railway, with headquarters at Cincinnati, Ohio.
Q. You may state the number of years approximately of your experience in railroading. A. Am at present with the Ohio & Mississippi; previous to that was with the New Albany & Chicago; previous to that Superintendent of the Pennsyl­ania lines West of Pittsburgh; previous to that locating and constructing railroads in Massachusetts, Minnesota and Maryland.
Q. You may state whether you are familiar with the testimony given in relation to this accident before the Railroad Commissioners and the coroner's inquest? A. No, I cannot say that I am familiar with the testimony; what little I have read has been comments.
Q. Assuming that the T. P. & W. road was in good condition, capable of running such a train as I will mention, as to track and bridges, state whether a passenger train made up of two engines, the forward one with a steam brake, the rear one with an air brake connected with the train, and to those two engines were attached one baggage car, one special car which was formerly used as a coach, five coaches back of that, two chair cars in the rear of the coaches, and six Pullman sleepers in the rear of them, with the Miller coupling and the Westinghouse air brake, would a train made up in that way, and running over such a road as I have stated, be in accordance with approved usage? A. It would be, provided you knew the bridges were safe for running it. My experience would be if I were making up a train like that, to put the heavy cars ahead. We are accustomed to put the sleepers ahead, and the coaches behind.
Q. What would the general usage be with reference to the places where sleepers are put? A. I think where it would happen to be the most convenient to use and switch them.
Q. Would that be in the rear or front part? A. Liable to be in one place as another.
Q. Assuming that this train was only to be run by the T., P. & W. from Peoria to the State Line, and there delivered to another company, and carried on to Niagara Falls, the sleepers and all the cars to be kept together in the position in which they were placed, would there be any objections in making up a train as I have indicated, and would it be according to usage, the entire train to be carried on to Niagara Falls? A. Yes, sir, according to general usage.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. But you think it would be better to have the heavy cars in front? A. I have been taught that. The roads I have been connected with, reasons have been given for running them that way.
Q. What are the reasons? A. We run our parlor car next to the baggage car. It is cleaner, and the train hauls easier.
Q. Is there any additional reason with respect to safety in case of accident to the train? A. I don't think there is any question about it being a safer place.
Q. You mean that the car next to the engine is safer than the rear car? A. Yes, sir, if the heavy part of the train is altogether.
Q. What would you say of it if confined to the West? A. I should say it was in accordance with general usage in the West. I don't think you would find many railroads West that would do differently.
Q. You mean that a train made up as that train was on the T., P. & W., was in conformity with the general usage of the West? A. Everywhere. I don't think it is confined entirely to the West. I have seen a good many trains made up as that was, on first-class roads in the East.
Q. Give us your opinion as to what is the very best manner of making up a train? A. I should put the heavy coaches together, to make it haul easier. In case of accident it would not be so serious; in case of dirt, it would be cleaner.
Q. You think it would be safer for those in the lighter coaches to be behind? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that would govern you in making up the train? A. I would be governed by that, but I have made up trains as that was.
By Mr. Lee—Q. How would it be in case of a collision from the rear, from a train running into it, with the coaches put behind the sleepers; wouldn't it be liable to cause more loss of life and injury? A. I think if you wanted to provide against a rear collision, I should rather place the sleepers on the rear end than a coach, because of its greater strength to resist; at the same time have a heavy engine in front.
Q. You may state whether it would be according to general usage, where precautions were taken to have the track inspected, the orders given for that purpose, switches all to be locked, and give the train free right of way, to run such a train as that at a rate of speed say 30 or 35 miles an hour; would it be contrary to usage, or would it be approved? A. It would be approved.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Do you mean to say that general usage approves that way of running double-headers and 15 cars in a train? A. Yes, sir, the coupling between the engines being close, and the air brake connected. I understand they had the steam brake on the leading engine. I have frequently run double-headers on excursion trains.
Q. Under what conditions is it done? A. It is safer to run a train of that character in one section than in two, unless you have telegraph offices close together, so you can keep them apart. If I were running a train of that kind, I would rather run it in one section than in two. It is better for the dispatcher to look after. I think it is easier to run it that way than in two sections.
Q. What would be the maximum number of cars that you would put in such a train? A. If it is properly equipped with air brakes, the more you have the easier it is to stop.
Q. Why? A. You have more resistance; more wheels are set and you have greater resistance to the momentum.
Q. Is it as safe to have two wills controlling the motive power as one? A. It has been customary for the leading engineer to control the train: the leading engineer has control of the train, and the following engineer does as he indicates.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Engineers throughout the country are governed by a system of signals? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Is there an appliance to connect the front engine with the air brakes on the whole train? A. Yes, sir. Ours are arranged that way.
Q. What is the usual custom about connecting the front engine on double-headers —about connecting the air brakes on the front engine with the whole train? A. The usual custom is to connect it all the way through; then you have one solid piece. There is nothing to do but to carry a piece of hose from the front engine back and connect it.
Q. It is a simple device and easily made use of? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Commissioner Marsh—Q. Where you are running a double-header, can you connect both engines? A. You can connect the whole train with both engines. You can connect all the engines together. The forward engine controls the brakes.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. And usage requires, as you understand it, that the train would be under the charge of the front engineer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it usual among well managed railroads to place an engine in front that is not connected with the whole train with an air brake? A. Speaking from experience, I should say, provided the leading engineer had a driver brake—they are equipped ordinarily with a brake on the tank—I should consider the steam brake would be next to the air brake.
Q. What difference is there between engineers who run freight engines, and those who run passenger engines as to qualifications for safely controlling a train? A. All our passenger engineers are made from freight runners. An officer has charge of sending the men out. We wouldn't put on a green man. The freight men as a rule make good passenger runners. Of course it takes a little time to get accustomed to handling the air brake so it will not jerk the train.
Q. A freight engineer would be just as good if he could handle the air brake? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does it take as much skill to run and manage a freight engine as it does an engine propelling a passenger train? A. I think it takes just as much skill, every bit. It is only a question of handling the brake well; it only needs a little time. As to the safety of the train, I would just as well have a freight engineer as a passenger engineer if he had brakes with which he was familiar.
Q. I would like to know whether you run double-headers on passenger trains ex­ept in cold weather, and under conditions that require extra power at particular points? A. We are governed by circumstances, as to having an extra number of cars to move, or having snow on the ground. It is as liable to occur in the summer as in the winter.
Q, Your opinion is, and you think usage sustains it that these large trains are propelled as safely and securely as if they were run in sections? A. I think you are governed entirely by circumstances, and the condition of the road.
Q. Are you familiar with the T., P. & W. road? A. Not very familiar with the road; I know about the character of the country. In this particular case I should probably have done the same thing. I should rather have handled it in one train than in two.
Q. Is that your opinion as an expert founded upon your knowledge of the facts touching the telegraph stations, and the condition and character of the ground over which that railroad runs? A. My experience has been in coupling the train closely together with that precaution, I should have done the same thing.
Q. How coupling them closely together? A. Having both engines under the control of the air brakes.
Q. You know what this coupling was in this case? A. Yes, sir .
Q. What do you say of the Miller coupling, speaking as an expert? A. My experience has been more with another coupler.
Q. What coupler? A. The Janney.
Q. How extensively is the Miller coupler used? A. Very extensively; it is used on 90 per cent of the railroads all over the country.
Q. Is it considered a good coupling? A. The Pennsylvania, B. & O. and the O. & M. are the only roads that I know of that use the Janney.
Q. What is this Blackstone coupling? A. I only know from what I have seen of it on the Alton road.
Q. Is there any difference between the Janney platform and the Miller? A. There is no difference in the platforms, but the couplings are very different.
Q. Is there any more danger of trains telescoping with the Miller than any other in use? A. I knowing the Janney so well am in sympathy with it.
Q. What is the specific difference between them? A. The Miller couples with a hook, while with the Janney it couples with knuckles which open and close.
Q. They both adjust themselves? A. Not by hooking; that's the Miller. With the Janney it is perfectly stationary; simply opens the knuckles, and closes them up.
Q. After they are coupled there is no loose motion? A. No, sir; there is four inches between the platforms.
Q. Is there anything to prevent them from breaking loose? A. I think the manner in which they are coupled together prevents them from jolting loose. There is very little chance for them to break loose, unless the knuckles break.
Q. How is it with the Miller? A. I don't know so much about that; of course I know the style.
Q. How are they kept together? A. There is a leverage on the hook that keeps them close together. After they are coupled there is a spring that keeps them close together; they are bound to keep together. The platforms are about the same with the Miller as with the Janney. We have what is called a combination Miller and Janney. When I go on a road that has the Janney I take it. We use the same platform.
Q. What prevents the cars telescoping if a collision happens? A. It brings the end sills right square together, and they cannot telescope unless they separate. Unless the cars are separated, they come right square together against the sills of the cars. That would resist a very severe strain.
Q. What is there in the Blackstone coupling that differs from the others? A. I cannot couple to the Blackstone except with a link. I should think that on a train with the Blackstone coupling that if the car turned over the whole train would turn over; telescoping would be impossible, I should think.
Q. You may state how they differ from the Miller and Janney in that respect. A. With the Miller and Janney, the strain comes directly on the draw bar, while with the Blackstone, I understand the train is hauled with the ordinary link and pin. The Blackstone has platform sills extending from one car to the other.
Q. Is there some arrangement that keeps the pin in place? A. I think there is a place in the platform where they take up the slack, and that keeps the pin in place.
Q. Is there any appliance on the Blackstone that is not on the Miller and Janney? A. These long timbers extending from one car to the other prevents the platform of one car from rising above the platform of the other, unless something gives away. The one serious objection to the Blackstone on our road would be, I don't think you can go around sharp curves with it; it is too stiff.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Is it customary to pay freight and passenger engineers the same salaries? A. No, sir; the runners of the freight engines are paid a different rate.
Q. The passenger the highest? A. Yes, sir. The freight engineers are paid more per mile.
Q. Why is it? A. The freight engineer is not able to make so many miles.
Q. Does the aggregate amount to more to the passenger, or to the freight engineer? A. To the passenger; we have pretty long runs with our passenger engines, and get a good deal of mileage out of them. We run 190 miles on a stretch with our passenger engines.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Did I understand you to say that when you run a double-header, that you have it connected so that the air brakes will operate from both engines? A. Yes, sir.
Q. If the front engine didn't have the air brake, what effect would that have on the train in stopping it? A. The effect would be to jerk the train. If the front one had a brake, it would be difficult to apply them so they would stop together.
Q. You consider it safer to have the air brakes applied on both engines? A. I think the more nearly you get every car and every engine on a train in the shape of one solid piece, the better it is.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Suppose you had been Superintendent of this road, and sending out this train, and it had been customary for you to use double-headers on freight trains a large number of times, would it not in your judgment have been perfectly safe to run a passenger train with a double-header? A. Yes. sir.

CHAS. HAMILTON.

Mr. Hamilton, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. Lee, and testified as follows:

Q. Mr. Hamilton, will you please state your business? A. Superintendent of the St. Louis division of the Mobile & Ohio railroad, with headquarters at St. Louis.
Q. You may state your experience in railroading, and in what capacity. A. I have had an experience of about 25 years as engineer, road mister, Superintendent and general manager.
Q. You heard the questions which I propounded to Mr. Bent regarding the character of this train, and how it was made up, and also the assumption as to the condition of the track. You may state whether that train was made up and run in accordance with customary usage? A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. You may state whether if you had been in charge of the T. P. and W. railroad at that time, and it had been customary for you to run heavily loaded freight trains with double-headers, whether you would have considered it safe to run a passenger train of this character over it? A. I would.
Q. By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Do you think that a double-header is safe? A. I would prefer to run a double header in preference to running it in two sections.
Q. Why? A. Because it was run at night, and there were very few telegraph offices open along the line, which is usually the case. I would say because it is easier to run one train than two, less risk, and fewer orders to give.
Q. In case of a broken rail, or a bridge knocked down, or in case of lire, would it be easier to stop a double header than a single one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why? A. Because there, is more resistance. The more cars you have the better you can stop. The application of the brake is instantaneous. To apply it to a train of 10 or 12 cars, it would act quicker than on a short train.
Q. Supposing you had 15 or 16 cars? A. There would be so much brake power brought to bear.
Q. Supposing it was attached to only one engine? A. That would be practically the same, in case the front engine was equipped with some kind of a brake.
Q. Isn't it supposed that the front engineer would be addled? A. He is not supposed to get addled. They are always on the alert and ready for any emergency; he could signal the engineer in the rear to apply his brake at the same time.
Q. You think he could stop a train just as quick with a large number of cars? A. I think there would be very little difference.
Q. With two engines and 15 cars, the rear engine equipped with an air brake and connected with the train, the front engine equipped with a steam brake acting on the drivers, what power would the front engineer have with that steam brake for stopping the cars? A. He would signal the engineer in the rear.
Q. What power would he have, if he didn't do that? A. None at all, only on his own engine. But he would hardly do that; his first impulse would be to signal the other engineer.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What precautions are usually taken, in well-managed railroads in sending out a large excursion train with double-header, to insure the safety of that train and its passengers? A. The train is usually advertised and the schedule published. It is not the usage to make an extra efforts. In England they side track all trains to run the royal train. In this country they run all trains and do not side track them.
Q. Is not there a risk in sending out a large train? A. There is no risk in running it. There is more risk to the people in getting on and off, simply because there are more people. There is no risk in handling the train.
Q. No more danger to the passengers? A. Not with the handling of the train.
Q. Wouldn't it naturally occur to you that more than ordinary precautions ought to be taken? A. We don't anticipate accidents.
Q. What do you think of the propriety of sending out a pilot engine in advance of a large excursion train of fifteen or twenty cars? A. I should not think it was necessary. They do that in Russia when the Czar is on the train.
Q. Wouldn't it be a proper precaution? A. It wouldn't suggest itself to me to do that.
Q. I am asking the question as to what ought to be? A. That is not the usage.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Do any other railroads take extra precautions against accidents? A. I have seen 22 coaches on the Lake Shore road.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You have had some experience in stopping trains. In what distance can an ordinary train be stopped running a little down grade with five coaches and one locomotive, in case they had to do it? A. With an air brake it could be stopped within 700 or 800 feet.
Q. Could it be stopped in any shorter distance than that? A. It might be stopped in a shorter distance; it might be brought up in 500 feet. It usually takes a passenger train 600, 800 and 1,000 feet to stop.
Q. Do you think a train in the condition this was could be stopped as quickly as an ordinary train? A. I think so; yes, sir.
Q. D)o you know anything about the bridge that has been spoken of? A. Only as I have seen it described in the papers.
Q. Do you think that engine would have jumped it had there been no timbers there to support it? A. I don't think it would.
Q. It would probably have struck against the opposite bank? A. Engines have run over gaps; I had a train to do that once; there was nothing to support it but the rails, and the engine passed over.
Q. But suppose there was nothing there? A. It would go down.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What is your observation upon that subject among well regulated railroads as to the security and safety of running double-headers? A. It is done every day with perfect safety.
Q. On what roads? A. In the East where they have a large amount of travel.
Q. Do they risk it on these dirt roads in Illinois? A. They would if they had the passengers to haul.
Q. Do you mean to say there is no more danger in running them on a dirt road, than on a gravel road? A. Not at this time of the year.
Q. Do you think a dirt road increases the danger to a double-header? A. I have a dirt road, and run a double-header almost every clay.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. If you had been in Mr. Armstrong's car with the weight of the other fourteen cars behind you and running at 35 miles an hour, would you rather have been there or at the rear? A. I would rather have been at the rear.

Springfield, Illinois, September 2, 1887.

E. T. JEFFERY.

Mr. Jeffery, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. Please state your name and business. A. Edward T. Jeffery, residence, Chicago, Illinois—occupation, General Manager Illinois Central railroad.
Q. What experience, have you had in railroading—in what capacities have you served? A. I began railroading in October, 1856, in the machine shops of the Illinois Central Railroad Company in Chicago; was afterwards apprenticed to mechanical drawing, and was mechanical draftsman for the company for eight or ten years; was then appointed assistant superintendent of machinery, and filled that position for five years. The machinery department embraced both locomotive and car departments. I was appointed General Superintendent on May 1, 1877, and became General Manager about two years since. I have been with the Illinois Central Company for 31 years.
Q. You may state if you please, Mr. Jeffery, what experience you have had in making up and running excursion trains, etc. A. As General Superintendent, and General Manager, it has been my duty in conference with other officers, to arrange for the running of passenger and excursion trains, and all other trains on our line.
Q. I will ask you to state, what, among well managed railroads, are the proper precautions necessary to be taken in starting and running excursion trains? A. The road bed is supposed to be in good condition, or it ought to be so; the road should be looked over by the section men every day and kept clear of that which is liable to cause damage to persons in passing over. The cars, before they are made up in the train, should be looked over by the car inspector employed for that purpose. These employes should see that the running gear is in a safe condition, that the air brakes are in good order, and that the cars are clean, and fit for the accommodation of passengers. When the engine is designated to take the train, it is the duty of the men employed for that purpose to look over the engine carefully, and see that it is in proper running order, and that all the appliances for making and using steam are in good order. It is the duty of the engineer to examine the engine and see if his appliances are in good order. At the arrival at the depot to connect to the train which the engine is to pull, after coupling his engine, the engineer's first duty is to see that the air brakes are in working order, and test them by applying the air two or three times before the train starts. If found to be in working order, it is ready for the trip.
Q. Are there any running orders? A. If it is a regular schedule train, orders are not necessary; if it is an excursion train, or what is called a special passenger train, then running orders are necessary, and are given by the dispatcher to the conductor and the engineer, covering the movements of that train over the road. Orders corresponding are given to opposing trains.
Q. What precautions would you require in respect to patrolling the track preceding the movements of the train? A. As before stated, it is the duty of the section foreman, who usually has charge of from five to seven miles of track, to pass over with his men his section daily, and inspect the rails, ties and culverts, and everything pertaining to the road. By continued working upon his section, he knows every tie and every opening on his piece of road, the same as you would know every article of furniture in your chamber.
Q. How long before the passage of a train does proper precaution require this inspection to be made? A. It's usually before the passage of a train. If it was before the passage of a special train in day time, he would do it as nearly as he could after the passage of other trains; if it is in the evening, after what are termed working hours, the inspection would be made the last thing before the men stop work.
Q. When the train is made up and ready to start, what would you say with respect to what is required as proper, as to running a passenger train of 15 cars, propelled by two engines at the head of a train; what is customary among well managed railroads in that respect? A. The custom varies according to circumstances. In winter time, in heavy snow storms, it is customary to run double-headers, and there are few railroads lying in the territory liable to snow storms, but what do it every winter. In other times, with heavy traffic, and being short of power, or some temporary shortness of safe employes, it is the custom to run double-headers. I wouldn't say the custom, but the running of double-headers is resorted to. It is considered a safe thing to do.
By Mr. Lee—Q. It is an approved method? A. It is done at times by all railroads with which I am acquainted, under certain conditions and circumstances. Generally it is preferred by railroad men not to run them, but there are conditions and circumstances that necessitate it in the opinion of railroad managers and experts.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Aside from snow storms, what are the circumstances recognized by well managed railroads that justify the use of double-headers? A. A railroad having a large pressure of business on it, and its trusty men being overworked, or closely pressed with work; again, circumstances might arise, where owing to the exigencies of traffic—well, a variety of circumstances might, arise, that
would lead a Superintendent at that particular time to run a double-header. At times it is considered preferable by railroad experts on a single track railroad to run double-headers for fear of a rear end collision, through the carelessness of the men following.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Suppose the excursion train was being run with tickets sold, numbers given for berths, and seats in chair cars from point of starting to all points between that and the terminal point, would it not be better to run it as a whole instead of two sections? A. It would be more convenient to passengers.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What with respect to the safety of the passengers? A. If I had the engines and the men that I could trust, my preference, speaking individually, would be to run it in two sections; but I have often ordered double-headers on the Illinois Central Railroad, and expect to in the future.
Q. Everything else being equal, you would prefer to run it in sections? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you think it would be preferable to run a single engine than to run a double-header? A. The reason that would govern me is, if an accident happened, such as a broken rail, or the derailing of the train, there would be fewer personal injuries if it were in two sections.
Q. As to the stopping and starting; what do you think about that? A. If both engines have the air brake, and the air brake is connected to the train from the second engine, there is not very much difference as to the stopping and starting.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Supposing the first engine has a steam brake? A. That adds material aid in stopping the train.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Is a steam brake better than an air brake? A. No, sir. The steam brake is applied to the driving wheels of the locomotive; the air brake is used in many instances on the drivers, and also through the whole train. The air brake is usually on the tender.
Q. You think that would be of greater assistance in stopping than the air brake? A. If applied in addition.
Q. Is it a fact that if an engine has an air brake, that it may also have a steam brake applied? A Yes, sir, it is frequently done.
Q. I understand you that it is a fact among well managed railroads to have an appliance on the engine for applying air brakes to both engines and the train? A. Yes, sir; but usually the custom is to apply the air brake from the rear engine to the train, and apply the air brake on the head engine to it independently; not to connect the air brake between the two engines. It may be done, but it is not es­sential.
Q. Would it stop any quicker? A. I think not.
Q. The train would be more readily under the control of the first engine if it were provided with air brakes connected with the train? A. I would hardly say that for this reason: the two engines are working together, if the head engineer simply shuts off steam the train jars against him, and the second engineer knows it immediately; or if the head engineer puts on his air brake the second engineer knows it immediately. When running together, engineers before they start usually talk together and understand one another. The second engineer will understand that if the head engineer shuts off steam, that he is to instantly follow; if the head engineer gives the signal for brakes, the second engineer will immediately acknowledge it.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Isn't there also a system of signals existing? A. Yes, sir, on all railroads.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What do you say of the length of a train of fifteen cars—whether that is the size of a train that is approved by proper management? A. In reply to that, I must say I have counted on the New York Central, trains of fifteen and sixteen cars, and on the Lake Shore railroad, and upon the Michigan Central. At times on the Illinois Central when you have had excursions and picnics we have had trains of fifteen cars, but unfortunately our passenger business is very slight.
Q. How about the Western roads? A. I have known trains of ten, twelve and thirteen cars to run on the Chicago & Northwestern railroad. The C., B. & Q. does not consider it unsafe, nor should I regard it as unsafe.
Q. In making up a train where it is to be composed of ordinary coaches, chair cars and sleepers, what according to the usage of well managed railroads is the proper method of making up such a train in regard to position in the train? A. Where the passenger traffic is heavy, and there are sleeping and chair cars used, on through trains, the preferable place is to put the chair and sleeping cars at the front end in order that they may be free from dust and dirt. The Western roads generally, owing to the fact that nearly all trains are local trains, and make local stops, the custom is to put the mail, baggage and express cars in front, and the day coaches next, and the sleeping and chair cars in the rear.
Q. With reference to having in view the safety of the passengers, where does the best approved management require them to be placed? A. The best approved management, I think, has no preference in that respect on the leading railways. Some place the cars in one place, and some in another. On the New York Central the Wagner sleepers are run next to the engine, and the ordinary coaches are run in the rear. On the limited express on the Pennsylvania road, perhaps one of the finest trains in the world, the forward car is the combination car, and following that come three or four drawing and sleeping cars.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Suppose you were making up an excursion train with five day coaches, two chair cars, one baggage car, one private car, and six sleepers, to be run through from Peoria to Niagara Falls, where the train was to make local stops at the different stations along the line for the purpose of taking up passengers. In what position would you place the cars in the train? A. Where the train had to take up passengers and baggage, I would put the baggage car in its customary place on the front end, and the day coaches next to it, so the engineer would make his stops at the customary points. If the baggage car were put in the rear, the engineer would be apt to make an error in stopping, and perhaps would have to back up. I should put the baggage car and the day coaches in their customary places, and the sleeping cars next, and the private car. if it was an official car, I should put it in the rear. If it was on a line where the train was simply to run over without making stops, I should be inclined to put the sleeping cars ahead, and the private car in the rear, in order to give the official a chance to see the railroad.
Q. Suppose you were running at night? A. It would be a matter of convenience, and I should attach no importance to that.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Are not the sleeping cars very much heavier than ordinary coaches? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In case of accident, and having in view the safety of the passengers, would you regard it as proper to have the sleepers in the rear as in front? A. Yes, sir, for the reason that the framing of the passenger car—I mean by that the side sills, intermediate stringers and platforms—are the same for corresponding length of cars as upon sleeping cars; and as the thrust comes upon the frame work, it stands to reason that there is as much resistance in a passenger coach as in a sleeper. The thrust does not come upon the superstructure, it comes upon the foundation of the car, and if the side sills, and platform timbers, etc., are made of uniform strength in the day coaches and the sleeping cars, I see no reason why it is not just as safe in one part of the train as the other.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. How about the superstructure? A. In sleeping cars it is stronger, because it is stiffened by the partitions between the berths and the partitions for water closets, and there are other rooms, and therefore it would not be so easily crushed, and to some extent not so easily telescoped.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What method of coupling cars is regarded as the best and most secure in respect to telescoping the cars? A. There are two. The first, and one that is most generally used, is the Miller; the second is the Janney. Those two are in general use; the Miller the more; the greater use of the Janney being confined principally to the Pennsylvania, and lines tributary, and running in connection with that system.
Q. Those are constructed very much alike, are they not? A. In reference to receiving thrusts, it may be said that they are nearly identical. When it comes to pulling, they are different. The Janney was adopted by the Pennsylvania company, because of it being better adapted to short curves.
Q. Do you know of any other appliance of coupling cars to avoid telescoping? A. I know of no other that is superior to either of those that I have mentioned. I have examined those in England, but I saw none there that would give equal comfort to passengers, as do our own arrangements here.
Q. Are you acquainted with the Blackstone coupler? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How does that rank with respect to security? A. Secondary to the two I have mentioned. The objections to it are that it takes too long a time to couple.
Q. How about tipping over? Isn't the Blackstone more likely to tip the whole train over if one of the cars tips over? A. I think there is very little difference, in respect to that.
Q. In what distance could a train be stopped, consisting of fifteen cars and two engines, the front engine equipped with a steam brake, the rear engine equipped with an air brake, running at say 32 miles an hour, if the object was to stop as quickly as possible? A. 450 feet would be a stop that ought to be made.
Q. You think it could be made in that distance? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think it could be made in any shorter distance? A. If everything was ready, and the men on the alert, it could be made in a less distance.
Q. In what distance could it be made with a special train of that size running at that rate at night? A. I should say from 400 to 450 feet would be a fair average.
By Mr. Lee—Q. In going down grade at the rate of 35 miles an hour in what distance could it be stopped? A. With engines reversed, and brakes all applied, it would be stopped ordinarily in from 450 to 500 feet.
Q. What would be the effect of a sudden reversing of the engine, and appliance of the brakes? A. It is liable to upset the passengers and break some of the appliances, and cause a great deal of discomfort throughout the train.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Would it cause the cars to jump the track? A. I should doubt about it causing the train to jump the track if the road is in good order, and the train is on a straight line, for the reason that the thrust is carried all the way through on a direct line, from the head engine to the second engine, and from the tender of the second engine right along through the whole train to the rear car; the thrust is carried on a direct line, or ought to be, and that being the case, I can hardly see how it would be apt to throw the train from the track, that is if the train is on a tangent.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. From your knowledge of operating railroads what would you say of the effect of a head-light upon the ability of the engineer to see a light ahead of him upon a straight line of road? A. The engineer stands in comparative darkness, and looks at the light ahead. He would probably see the light at a greater distance, if there was no headlight. You can illustrate that at your house by going into a dark room and looking through a lighted room into the street. If you stand in the dark room you would be apt to see into the street. If you stand with the light shining in your eyes, then it dulls the vision.
Q. The position of the engineer occupies the position of one that stands in the darkroom? A. Yes, sir. If the engineer is looking ahead, and the fire box is thrown open, it obstructs his vision a little, because of the light coming through the furnace door.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. How long would it take to stop a train half the length of the one that has been described, and with only one engine? A. Considering in the one place that the head engine had the steam brake, and a train of 15 cars, and in the other case a train of half that length and one engine, I should say ordinarily in about the same distance.
Q. What would be the effect of a broken rail, or something happening to the train, in a train composed of 15 cars? Which would be the most dangerous, a long train or a short one? A. I think the greater danger would be in the long train. Of course there is a possible danger of the head engine breaking a rail; but still if the train were run in two sections, it might be that the head engine would break a rail, and not be known by any one on that train that it was broken, and the second division might come along and run off the track.
Q. As an expert, if you had been the engineer on the front engine, and had known the condition of the bridge at a distance of 300 feet, would you have tried to stop that train, or would you have let it run? A. If I were the engineer I should have tried to stop it.
Q. You would say the proper thing to do would be for both of them to try to stop the train? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It is expected then that the front engineer should look out for the road? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The second engineer would expect to be governed by the head engineer? A. Not to be governed: he would depend upon the head engineer, but in depending upon him it does not relieve him of the necessity of keeping a sharp look out.
Q. What would be the ability of the second engineer to see fire along the track? A. It would be less than the head engineer.
Q. Still he might be able to see it? A. If it were on a straight road, and the fire one of magnitude, he might see it.
Q. Suppose it was a small fire? A. He might not see it.
Q. Do you generally put the best engineers on the passenger trains, or on the freight trains? A. Our rule is this to promote from the freight service to the passenger service the senior engineers in freight service, providing they are competent and reliable men. If they are not competent, we would promote them without regard to seniority.
Q. Do your engineers first start from firemen? A. Yes, sir. We first require a man to fire from three to four years, first on a switching engine, then freight engines; then he puts in a written application for promotion to engineer; he then appears before the board of examiners and is examined upon his technical knowledge of an engine. If he passes that examination, he appears before a committee and is examined upon rules and regulations for the running of all trains. If he passes that, he is then on probation for one year, and at the end of the year he receives a certificate which is certified that the bearer can be applied as an engineer, and then he becomes an engineer, and receives promotion to the passenger service.
Q. After he is a passenger engineer, he does not go back to the freight service? A. Not unless passenger business is slack.
Q. Would you consider that a freight engineer on the double-header spoken of should be a first-class engineer? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Lee-— Q. Suppose the engineer in front was a freight engineer; would you consider him incompetent to put upon the train? A. No, sir.
Q. Suppose he had been accustomed to running both freight and passenger engines? A. If he was a competent man, I should not hesitate about putting him on the engine.

E. ST. JOHN.

Mr. St. John, being duly sworn, was permitted to make the following statement:

I would like to say that I never have had any experience in mechanics, and that my testimony in that respect would be only on my judgment, which would not be as valuable nor as reliable as that of Mr. Jeffery and Mr. Stone. Having heard Mr. Jeffery's testimony in detail, I can say that the statements he has made are the conditions of things that exist on the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific railroad almost entirely; in fact I did not discover a discrepancy anywhere.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. I will ask you to state your name and age. A. Edward St. John—42 years of age.
Q. What is your business? A. Assistant General Manager of the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Railway Company.
Q. How long have you been in that position? A. Since last July a year. Previous to that I was assistant to the General Manager; previous to that for 22 years I occupied every position in the passenger department from clerk to chief clerk, general ticket agent, and general ticket and passenger agent.
Q. I will ask you if you are familiar with the best approved methods of running passenger trains on railroads? A. I think so.
Q. You heard the testimony of Mr. Jeffery? A. I did.
Q. Do you, or do you not, concur in the statements made by him in respect to running passenger and special trains? A. I concur with him very fully.

H. B. STONE.

Mr. Stone, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. I will ask you to state your name? A. Henry B. Stone.
Q. What is your occupation? A. General Manager of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railway Company. Residence, Chicago, Illinois.
Q. How long have you occupied that position? A. Something over two years.
Q. How long have you been in the railroad business? A. Nearly eleven years.
Q. What positions did you occupy prior to the one you now hold? A. Master Mechanic, Superintendent of motive power, General Superintendent and Assistant General Manager.
Q. I will ask you to state if you have heard the testimony of Mr. Jeffery? A. I have.
Q. On the precautions necessary to be observed in running passenger and special trains? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I will ask you to state whether you do, or do not, concur in the conclusions and statements made by him? A. Yes, sir, I do substantially.
Q. If in any respect you differ as to what is the most approved method of placing the cars in large passenger and special trains and the running of them, you may state wherein you do have a different view. A. As far as safety goes, my views correspond with Mr. Jeffery's. I wouldn't agree with him that I would just as lief? be in the front as in the rear; but as far as safety goes, I would.
Q. Substantially, you concur? A. As far as safety. The position of the cars in the train would be a matter of convenience to the passengers. I wouldn't regard that the safety would be affected by the position in the train. I further, don't think that I would be willing to allow as much stress upon the superstructure of the sleeping cars. It is true they have these partitions, but they are of very light weight, and if a collision takes place they are very small indeed. I don't think the interior arrangement of a sleeping car cuts much of a figure.
Q. Would their weight being in the rear of the train tend to increase the. probability of the cars telescoping in front? A. Telescoping of a train would depend entirely upon the total weight behind. For example: if a collision takes place the telescoping of the car next to the engine would be as likely to occur whether you had the sleepers behind or in front. It is the total weight behind that telescopes them. I didn't carry the whole of Mr. Jeffery's testimony in my head, but there is one other point, while his answer is true, I don't think it was explicit enough to cover the ground. That is in regard to the distance in which a train can be stopped. The distance in which a train can be stopped is governed by a good many things that are likely to occur, such as a slight difference in the weather, or a slight difference in the moisture of the ground; the grade is a very considerable fact. When he says a train running at 35 miles an hour can be stopped within 450 or 600 feet, I don't think it is practicable, but I don't say that it is impossible.
Q. In what distance in your opinion could a train of 15 cars, drawn by two locomotives, and running at the rate of 30 to 32 miles an hour, at a point in the road where the grade is a down grade of 35 feet to the mile, be stopped with proper management and care? A. That is a question that I cannot answer exactly. With that train I should call it a good stop if it was made between 600 and 1,000 feet. I wouldn't call 1,000 feet a poor stop.
By Mr. Lee—Q. If it took 1,000 feet to stop the train, would it be any evidence of a defect in the train? A. It would not, under the conditions of the previous question.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. As Superintendent of motive power you became familiar with all appliances for stopping trains? A. Yes, sir. There is one other point that I would like to speak of that I think will be worth while for me to say, and that is in regard to the stopping of a train of 15 cars, and a train of 15 cars divided into two sections. I would like to say in regard to that, that there is practically no difference. The reason of that is—I am assuming that they are equipped with the Westinghouse brake—that each car has its own brakeing, so as you add cars to the tram you put on an additional brakeing power; that is to say that the brakes on each car are so arranged that when you put on the brake the full brakeing power of that car is called into requisition. The compressed air comes from the reservoir which is placed under the car, and the function of the engine is to fill up these reservoirs; and with a train running along with the brakes off, then each car has its own brakeing power right under it. So the number of cars you put in the train cuts no item; the only difference it makes is the short time it takes the brake to act. The Westinghouse brake is almost instantaneous.
Q. Don't the resistance increase in proportion to the number of cars? A. No, sir, that is a fallacy.

Q. If each car has its own brakeing power that is the end of it? A. Yes, sir. I would further state that this matter of brakeing is one that the C., B. & Q. has given a great deal of attention to, and probably more than any other railroad in the country. In the summer of 1886 and in May, 1887, we had some very exhaustive tests of this brakeing question at Burlington, and there were some brakes very carefully adjusted, and this statement of each car having its own brakeing power was shown. Each car does its own stopping; there was no crowding. Of course, that in practice does not take place. I think a train of 15 cars can be stopped just as quick as they could be if there were seven in one section and eight in the other.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. What would be the effect in case of an accident, or in case a bridge was to get knocked down? A. The magnitude of the accident would be greater, because there would be a greater number of people concerned in it.
Q. The greater the weight, the harder the train would be to stop? A. As far as the brakes go, if they are put on it takes no longer to stop a long train than a short one.
Q. Can an engineer see a light upon the track as well as a man can standing upon the track and looking in the same direction? A. I don't think he could. To some extent the head-light acts as a curtain; it is a slight curtain, but it is one. If I were going to look for anything, and I think Mr. Jeffery will agree with me that if I got down out of the engine and went in front of it, that I could see what it was, better than if I stayed in the cab. This question of how far a man can see a light when he is in the engine, depends a great deal upon the color of the light at night. White is the best to see.
Q. How is a red light? A. You cannot see it as far as you can a white one.
Q. Different colored lights are put on for different signals? A. Yes, sir, they mean different things.
Q. Suppose a white light was put on a train and it was within a mile, would anything hinder an engineer from seeing that if there were no obstructions in the way? A. No, sir; the curtain effect upon that light would be so small as to be immaterial. The duller the light you are looking for ahead, the more effect the head-light would have upon on it.

F. C. Dodds, Stenographer.