Chatsworth Train Accident
August 10, 1887

TESTIMONY.

Peoria, Illinois, August 18, 1887...continued.

DR. F. C. BOURSCHEIDT.

Mr. Bourscheidt, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. Niehaus, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your occupation? A. Physician and surgeon.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Peoria.
Q. Do you remember the wrecking of this excursion train? A. I do.
Q. How soon after the accident did you arrive there? A. The next morning.
Q. What time did you leave Peoria? A. A little after 10.
Q. That was the second train? A. I think so.
Q. The first went out in the night; one at 8:30; three went out? A. Yes. It was the regular train. There had been two specials sent before, one at 3:30; the one at 8:30 was a special.
Q. Those were the three trains that went out after the excursion train? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in going? What was your purpose? A. Dr. Stewart, Dr. Adams, Dr. Coulter, Dr. Furry, and there were two or three other physicians from Canton there beside myself.
Q. What was your purpose in going out? A. I went to look after some families; some of my patients were in the wreck.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in going to the wreck? A. At Forrest, our train was stopped.
Q. How long was it detained there? A. About an hour; something like that; perhaps a little more.
Q. Was any explanation given as to why it was detained? A. We heard that the conductor received orders not to let the train go ahead, because there were people enough there.
Q. When did you get to the wreck, or simply to Chatsworth? A. Chatsworth.
Q. Did you hear also that another train was made up at Chatsworth? A. No.
Q. You were on the second train? A. Yes.
Q. You finally got to Chatsworth? A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any examination to see whether the wounded had been properly cared for? A. Yes.
Q. What is your judgment? A. They had all been cared for temporarily. There were very few of them that had been permanently dressed. There were very few that had their clothes taken off, and properly cared for when we got there.
Q. What time was that? A. Between 3 and 4 in the afternoon.
Q. Did you assist in the medical services there to the wounded? A. I did.
Q. Did these other physicians? A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell how many physicians, so far as you could observe, were on the ground after this train that you were on got there? A. No, I can't tell how many there were. I went first into the town hall, this building right across from the depot, and there was nobody in charge of the building. I tried to find out who had charge of the ward there. It seemed no one in particular. There was no physician there when I came in. Several came in after I got in.
Q. When you doctors got there, you were able to render assistance? A. Yes. I took out some temporary bandages, and washed the wounds off and blood, and put on permanent dressing. They had cold cloths and applications put on; cold water.
Q. You didn't go on to Piper City? Did you see Dr. Will there? A. Yes; about half an hour before the train left.
Q. You had a conversation with him? A. No, no conversation. I stepped up to him and said, "Hello, Doctor." That was all that was said.
Q. Did you make any remark then that they had enough physicians there? A. I did not. I had no conversation with him. He turned round, and said to me, "Hello, there is another Peoria doctor," and I left him. He was talking to Dr. Coulter.
Q. When you got there, you found that all the wounded had been attended to in some way or other? A. Yes.
Q. And in some cases, you thought it was necessary to redress the wounds? A. Most of them had only been taken temporary care of. A great many of them had other attendants. For instance, a young man from the ward was taken to a private house; I washed him and dressed his wounds.
Q. Who was that? A. A young man from Burlington; Lawrence, I think his name was. He was taken to Wilson's house.
Q. How many doctors were there? A. On our train about seven or eight, that went with me, and arrived there at, I should say, 3 or a little after, in the afternoon.
Q. You can't tell how many doctors, or who were present? A. I saw three or four gentlemen there that I knew were physicians, and I saw two Peoria physicians there outside of Dr. Steele. I met Dr. Martin and Dr. Johnson.
Q. Where did these doctors go to after they left you? A. We started from here; some of them came from Canton. Our train was held here a half an hour to allow this "Q" train to come in, so that these physicians from Canton could come on.
Q. And the detention at Forrest, as you understood it, was to let a train come out from there? A. We heard that the conductor had orders not to let us go on, because there were people enough there. Dr. Coulter, Dr. Adams, and myself went in the telegraph office and telegraphed to Mr. Armstrong, and stated that we were sent by the families to take care of the wounded, and would like to go there, and also that a great many of the mothers and sisters were there wanting to go on.
Q. What answer did you get? A. We could not go on.
Q. Was that the first despatch? A. In the first, and that said there were people enough there.
Q. After that I think Mr. Snively telegraphed, and showed me the answer, that he got from Mr. Armstrong, stating that he would let the train go on, provided that the physicians there would keep the crowd away from the hospitals.
Q. When you got there, did you have any difficulty in keeping the crowds back? A. No.
Q. Were there many there? A. The rooms were kept clear.
Q. Were there crowds at the door? A. Yes. There was somebody stationed at the door wherever we had been. It was no trouble to get in if you were a physician or relation.

CHARLES E. FLYNN.

Mr. Flynn, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus—Q. You are employed on the city force as a detective? A. Yes.
Q. Were you on one of the trains that went over to the wreck of this excursion train? A. Yes.
Q. What train was it? A. Left here at 8:30.
Q. How did you come to go? A. Ordered by the Mayor.
Q. You may state if that train was detained at Forrest for any length of time? A. Yes.
Q. How long? A. I should judge two or three hours.
Q. Were there any physicians on that train? A. Yes
Q. Any friends and relatives of the wounded and dead? A. Yes.
Q. What explanation was given as to why that train was detained that long? A. The Sheriff and I and Captain Dibble went into the telegraph office to find out the cause, why we could not go over to the wreck; and they said they could not let the train go on until they got orders from Mr. Armstrong, and the Sheriff requested them to telegraph over. The operator said that the reason they didn't want the train to go on, was because there were so many people there that if more went they would be in the way.
Q. Was that the only reason? A. Yes.
Q. You were detained about two or three hours? A. Yes.
Q. Did you finally go on to Chatsworth? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go on to the wreck? A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any examination of this bridge where the accident occurred? A. Yes.
Q. From your examination, can you give the Commission any idea with reference as to the cause of the fire that burned the bridge? A. I formed an opinion of my own.
Q. What is it? A. I should judge that it was set afire by the grass.
Q. Did you notice any burned grass at or near the timbers of the bridge? A. Not right near it. because the ground was all torn up right there. I did at some distance.
Q. Did you notice any dry grass? A. Yes.
Q. Were you on both sides of the culvert? A. Yes.
Q. You may state, as near as you can, where you first saw dry grass and how far from the bridge. A. On the left hand side going from Chatsworth and I should judge eight or ten feet from the bridge.
Q. Did you notice any on the other side, the South side? A. I didn't.
Q. Were you around among the wounded at Chatsworth and among the dead? A. Yes.
Q. You may state whether in your opinion they had the proper care, or had they had up to that time; did you hear any complaints made by any of them? A. No. I went into the temporary hospitals there, and looked around, and I saw nurses at every cot taking care of the sick.
Q. Did you see any doctors in attendance? A. None that I recognized. I saw several gentlemen that I supposed were doctors. How many I could not say.
Q. How many doctors came on this train that you came on? A. Four or five.
Q. Were they able to render any assistance when they got there? A. I don't know.
Q. What was your object in going there? A. There was a story in circulation that there were thieves at the wreck, and I went out to see.
Q. You didn't stop long? A. No; went through the hospitals, and among the people; left a man there to watch the baggage at the depot, and another officer was attached to the train that fetched the last bodies into Chatsworth, and took that engine and went out to the wreck immediately.
Q. You made an investigation as to any robberies and pilfering? A. We looked around and tried to recognize any suspicious characters around Chatsworth or at the wreck.
Q. Did you make any investigation? A. Yes.
Q. What was the result of it? A. I had a conversation with one lady that came in on the first train that came into Forrest. She stated that a gentleman had taken her watch and chain from her. I asked Mr. Will Clark in regard to the robbery out there, and he told me that he didn't see any robbing going on, and in conversing with him, he thought the woman was a little excited, and did not know whether she was robbed or not.
Q. From you examination, do you think there was any robbery committed, and to what extent? A. I do not; I think that all the robbing was done by people who were searching the dead for papers; perhaps one out of ten kept some of the articles taken, being unscrupulous.
Q. You don't think there was an organized band of thieves or pick-pockets? A. No.
Q. Did you see any suspicious characters around Chatsworth or at the wreck? A. Not until we came away from the wreck. Late that afternoon we met two noted characters from Peoria going to the wreck in the afternoon, but we found that they came on that last train that came over simply through curiosity. That was after the dead and wounded were removed.
Q. What led you to believe that the bridge was set on fire by the grass? A. I thought that it was, by seeing the grass in the surroundings there all burned.
Q How near to the bridge? A. I should judge ten or fifteen feet.
Q. On the South side? A. On the side towards Chatsworth; on the right hand side; that would be on the South side. I noticed that the grass was burned away from the bank and close to the bank in spots.
Q. You saw some dry grass that was not burned? A. That was on the left hand side from Chatsworth, on the North side.
Q. Do you know whether the fire at the bridge had been communicated by the grass that you saw burning there? A. I don't know. I simply investigated to find out whether the fire had been built under the bridge by some one. I should judge not, because the upper part of the bridge was burned more than the lower part; that is the piling.
Q. Was the piling burned at the base, near the ground? A. Very little.
Q. Did you notice any grass upon the side of the bank near the bridge? A. No, I did not.
Q. The cause of the fire was mere conjecture on your part? A. Yes.
Q. What time did you get there? A. I could not say positively. We left here at 8:30, and were detained at Forrest two hours, perhaps longer. I could not state. I imagined that it was six hours.
Q. What time did you get to the wreck? A. I could not state.
Q. Before 12 or after? A. After.
Q. How long were you in Chatsworth before you went to the wreck? A. Long enough to go through the hospitals, and to the people and make inquiries of several people around there, and waited until they got the bodies out.
Q. How long would it take you to do that? A. Perhaps an hour.
Q. Perhaps it was 4 o'clock before you got to the wreck? A. Perhaps.
Q. Your train didn't leave Forrest until the train returning from Chatsworth got there? A. Yes.
Q. If that bridge had taken fire from grass, would it have taken fire from below or above? A. I should judge it had taken fire from grass that ran out on the stringers.
Q. Did you see any grass there? A. Sometimes.
Q. Would it not have been more likely? A. The way I formed my opinion that it caught from the grass, was that the piling was all burned up top and not below. I don't know whether it caught from the engine or the grass. I don't think it was set fire to, because if it was, it would have been burned below.
Q. Would the grass be as liable to set fire there as below? A. I should judge so.
Q. Hour high was that bridge from the grass? A. I should judge five or six feet.
Q. What was the condition of the ground under the bridge? A. There was no grass under the bridge. There were some timbers in there and some charred pieces, and it looked as though it had been trampled around there a good deal.
Q. Isn't it a little high there? It comes up to the bridge, doesn't it? A. On the inside of the bridge or outside? Outside. Yes, it was pretty high there; on the right side there were lots of weeds and grass. I noticed there was a kind of a ditch running along there on the left hand side from Chatsworth; that is on the North side.
Q. There was a ditch running along there? A. Yes.

DR. BRUCE MARTIN.

Dr. Martin, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus—Q. What is your occupation? A. Physician.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Peoria, Illinois.
Q. Do you remember the accident at Chatsworth? A. Yes.
Q. Were you on any of the trains that followed that? A. I went on the 8 o'clock train.
Q. What was your purpose? A. I was engaged by some private parties that had friends over there, and relatives, to go over to attend to them if they were injured, and see that they had proper care and attention.
Q. You went to look after the wounded and your patients? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in getting to the place? A. Yes. We were held about an hour and a half at Forrest. I think that was about the time.
Q. Was there any explanation given as to the reason you were held that long? A. I found it was for the purpose of having the people that were able to be moved to Peoria return on that train from Chatsworth. I believe that was the only ostensible reason given.
Q. Did you and the other physicians on the train make any effort to have the train moved? A. We did all we could. We went to the Sheriff from Peoria county, and says, "Warren, can you have this train moved on?" and we looked up the road and saw another train coming down. Our train didn't move until the train from Chatsworth came in. We then went on to Chatsworth.
Q. Were you able to render any assistance when you got there? A. I think the wounded had all received attention; the wounds had all been dressed. There was a great deal of work when I got there. My patients were there and wanted my attention when I got there. I was very busy. I think the physicians that had been there gave all the care to those people that they possibly could. Their wounds were all dressed nicely. You know in dressing the wounds that way, you would not dress them permanently. They were as comfortable as could be, but of a temporary character.
Q. Did you go on to the wreck? A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any particular examination as to the cause of the fire? A. I never thought of it; I didn't make any examination of the cause of the fire at all.
By Mr. Lee—Q. This train you met at Forrest, was it loaded with wounded? A. Well, no, not wounded. It was loaded with people that were able to go home, most of them uninjured, unless some slight cuts—all able to take care of themselves; didn't need nursing.

JOHN MURPHY.

Mr. Murphy, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Q. You reside here? A. Yes, 410 Johnson street.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Iron moulding at Nicol, Burr & Co., going on twenty years.
Q. You had a daughter and wife killed at this accident? A. Wife and two daughters.
Q. Did you go out on any of the trains that followed the excursion train? A. I went at 8 the next morning.
Q. What was your purpose in going out? A. To find out if any of my family was killed.
Q. That 8:30 train. A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in going to the scene of the wreck, or to Chatsworth? Was the train detained? A. As far as I understood, she went on pretty well until we got to Forrest.
Q. How long were you detained there? A. I could not tell, but as near as I could judge about an hour and a half, or two.
Q. It didn't leave there until the train was coming back to Peoria with some of the wounded? A. Not that I know of.
Q. You went on to Chatsworth then, did you? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know anything with reference to how the wounded or dead were taken care of? A. I don't know more than that I heard from a good many saying that they were treated pretty good.
Q. You heard no complaints? A. No.
Q You didn't go out to the wreck? A. No.
Q. Was there any explanation given to you as to why that train was held? A. I heard that the Superintendent didn't want any more there, and didn't want the folks there that had relatives killed; didn't want to give any information to the folks; that was the only explanation I got.
Q. That was what was said by the people there? A. Yes.
Q. You heard that at Forrest? A. Yes.
Q. That was just talk among the crowd? A. Yes. When I got to Chatsworth I went into the depot, and went up around to see if I could see anybody that I wanted to answer my purpose; nobody there. I inquired if any children were there. They told me they were in the school house. I had no trouble in finding my two children laying side by side. Two ladies were there and asked me if they were mine. I said yes. They asked me if they could do anything for me, to help to dress them. I told the ladies, if they wished, to wash their faces, and they did. I went out to hunt my wife. I think about three blocks, in the furniture house. I went in there and found my wife laying there.
Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Murphy, did you have any conversation with engineer McClintock before he went out on that train? A. I don't know the man.
Q. Did you hear of any protest made by him against going out with that double-header? A. I heard so the next day.
Q. Of whom did you hear? In the crowd? A. I don't know.
Q. You heard some one in the crowd say that he protested? A. Yes.
Q. You don't know who that was? A. No.
Q. That was all you heard upon that subject? A. Yes.

DR. J. H. COULTER.

Dr. Coulter, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus.—Q. What is your occupation? A. Physician.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Peoria.
Q. Were you on one of the trains that followed the train that was wrecked on the T., P. & W. on the 10th of August? A. Yes.
Q. What train was that? A. It was the train that went out of here about 10 or shortly after; between 10 and 11.
Q. The same that Dr. Bourscheidt was on? A. Yes.
Q. What was your purpose in going to the wreck? A. To render assistance.
Q. You went in your capacity as physician? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in reaching the scene of the wreck, or the place where the wounded were? Were you detained at any place? A. For a short time at Forrest.
Q. About how long were you detained at Forrest? A. I could not say, but it didn't seem to me any great length of time. I should say perhaps about three quarters of an hour, perhaps an hour. About three quarters of an hour is the best of my recollection.
Q. About what time did you go to Chatsworth? A. I don't know.
Q. Were you able to be of any assistance when you got there? A. Yes
Q. As a physician? A. Yes.
Q. Did the other doctors that came with you on the same train render assistance? A. I don't know.
Q. Did you go clear out to the wreck? A. Not then.
Q. Did you afterwards? A. In the evening.
Q. Did you make any examination of this culvert? A. No.
Q. You have no opinion then from what you saw as to what was the origin of the fire that caused it to burn? A. I have not.
Q. Did you go out to see any person particularly, or generally to be of assistance? A. No person in particular.
Q. What other doctors were on that train that you went on? A. Dr. Bourscheidt Dr. Stewart, and Dr. Furry. That is all that I recollect present.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Was there any explanation given as to why that train was detained at Forrest? A. There was none.
Q. Did you examine the condition of the wounded there at Chatsworth in respect to the degree of care that they received up to that time? A. Yes.
Q. How did you find them? A. I found them all as well cared for as could be expected, I think.
Q. You mean, under the circumstances? A. Yes, with the number of physicians in attendance, and the number of the wounded.
Q There were apparently plenty of physicians there, and the wounded were apparently all cared for? A. I knew a great many there that were not occupied at the time.
Q. Did you hear any complaints among the wounded, of any neglect on the part of the officials of the road of the want of care? A. I did not.
Q. Was there any reason assigned that you heard of at Forrest for the detention of the train? A. Yes.
Q. What was it? A. I heard persons say that it was held because there was already more there than was necessary, because there was a great crowd of people.
Q. You were there about three quarters of an hour? A. I don't think it was longer.
Q. Did you hear of a train being got up at Chatsworth coming in that direction with some of the wounded on? A. I merely heard it spoken of. I was on the second train.
Q. That was Friday that you went out? A. Thursday.
Q. You went out at 10:30? A. Yes.

A. APPLEGREEN, RECALLED.

Mr. Applegreen, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus—Q. You were the fireman on the second engine? A. Yes.
Q. That's the engine that McClintock was on? A. Yes.
Q. From that engine could you see ahead on the track any distance? A. You could, yes, if you would look.
Q. That is, could you look beyond the first engine? A. Yes, you certainly could.
Q. Did you and the engineer keep any lookout in that direction? A. Yes, at times; but not all the time, because the sparks coming back towards our engine, were getting in our eyes.
Q. Did you see any fire, or light that indicated fire, before you struck this culvert? A. I did not.
Q. Did you feel any shock or plunge made by the engine in front just before you struck the culvert? A. No.
Q. If the engineer had pulled out the throttle of the engine, so as to open her out wide, would you have felt a shock? Could you have felt it on the second engine? A Not unless he had shut off previously to that.
Q. Suppose he had first reversed it, and then pulled out the throttle to the full extent, could you have felt it? A. Yes.
Q. Did you feel anything of that kind? A. No.
Q. Then you felt nothing until you struck the bridge? A. No.
Q. What kind of a fastening is there between the engine proper, and the tender? A. What is called the shackle-bar.
Q. Is there any room for play between the tender and engine, or are they fast together? A. There is a little room.
Q. As I understand that shackle-bar---- A. The shackle-bar is between the two engines. The draw-bar is between the engine and tender.
Q. I was inquiring between the engine proper and tender. Where is it located? A. Right under the deck.
Q. And what kind of a bar is that? A. Flat, about four inches wide; fourteen or fifteen long.
Q. Is there more than one bar to hold those together? A. One bar and two safety pins.
Q. This bar is put in, and there is a covering over it, isn't there, when it is in place? A. Well, the deck is over it and the bank proper. The bar is loose underneath; it has play.
Q. Is the pin so that it can be pulled out rapidly? A. Yes, by pushing it from the bottom.
Q. Can't you pull it up unless you take hold of the bottom? A. You can't get hold of it from the engine and pull it out, unless it is pushed up so that you can get hold of it with your fingers.
Q. Is there any other way to push it up except by getting on the outside? A. None that I know of. It is exposed underneath.
Q. Is it exposed above? A. There is no covering but the deck. There is no need of any.
Q. Are all the engines and tenders hitched in that way? A. All that I have ever seen.
Q. You don't think that a pin could be pulled from the inside? A. Know it could not.
Q. Did you examine the coupling or pin of this first engine after the wreck? A. Well, I saw it; I can't say that I examined it. Not between the engine and tender I didn't examine.
Q. The engine separated from the tender, as I understand? A. Yes.
Q. Did you examine as to whether there was any break of any pin, or anything else on the tender of the engine, where it separated? A. I didn't examine.
Q. Did you notice the pin? A. No.
Q. Did you notice this engine just before you struck the bridge, before your engine struck the bridge, before it made any plunge? A. No.
Q. You didn't notice the separation of the engine from the tender? A. No.
Q. Where were you when your engine struck the bridge? A. I was standing in the cab with both hands on the window.
Q. Did you jump, or were you thrown out? A. I stayed there, and held on until I got out.
Q. Did McClintock say anything to you in the way of a protest against going out in that way on that train? That is, with a double-header? A. No.
Q. Didn't he say anything to you with reference to having made a protest to Armstrong about going out? A. No.
Q. Didn't he say that he didn't like to go out with some one ahead of him with that heavy train? A. No. Well, he didn't say that to me.
Q. Do you know of any one else that he said that to? A. No.
Q. You didn't hear him express himself in that way? A. I heard others say he did; I didn't hear him.
Q. Can you give the names of any parties that claimed they heard him say that? A. Will Meredith said that he told him that, but I don't believe he ever spoke to him at all. He was not acquainted with him. He would not be liable to express himself in that way.
Q. Did you make any examination of that bridge after the accident? A. I looked at it.
Q. Did you make any examination with reference to ascertaining the origin of the fire? A. No.
By Mr. Lee—Q. You said that you could look forward and see in front of you notwithstanding there was another engine there? How far in front of you could you see on the track? I suppose you mean the track. A. I could see very near as far as I could see if I was ahead, if I leaned way out of the window. If I could get my whole body out to the side, I could see very near as far.
Q. Did you look out that way? A. Not at that point.
Q. Do you remember whether you leaned out and looked forward on the track after you left Chatsworth? A. I don't remember of looking forward at all after we left Chatsworth.
Q. If there was a fire upon the track—bridge burning—upon the track at the point where this bridge did burn, could you see it between Chatsworth and that place? A. If bright enough, I could.
Q. Could you see it from Chatsworth, if very bright? A. I don't remember of looking at Chatsworth or after, to see if there was any light. I didn't look forward at all.
Q. Do you know what the condition of the shackle-bar was after the accident? A. You mean between the two engines?
Q. No, between the engine and tender. A. I can't say positively that I know. I can imagine. I never looked at it particularly. A slot at one end was broken.
Q. Are all those shackle-bars connecting the engine and tender alike? A. Very heavy.
Q. Are they alike? A. They have no standard pattern, I think.
Q. Do the pins all come down flat? A. Yes, all that I have ever seen did.
 

DAVID G. SUTHERLAND, RECALLED.

Mr. Sutherland, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus—Q. You were on the first engine on this train? A. Yes, engine 21.
Q. How far were you from the bridge when you first discovered the fire? A. When I saw sign of a fire, I would judge 300 feet. I saw there appeared to be a fire at the side of the track.
Q. Which side of the track? A. I saw it on the right, South side. I would judge about 300 feet; about a block. It might have been less.
Q. How far can you see along that track after leaving Chatsworth? The rails? A. Yes. If there was a good head-light, we can see the rails—we can see obstruction on the track, for instance, any way prominent, the head-light will show strongly about the distance of two telegraph poles.
Q. About 200 feet? A. In the night you spoke of.
Q. Do you mean to say that on that track, you can only see a head-light the distance of two telegraph poles? A. No.
Q How far can you see a head-light? A. It is owing to the position it is in. If it is a raised track, and there is no obstruction.
Q. You know what that track is. How far can you see a head-light on that track? A. It will have to depend. The engine can be in a certain position on that track, and I don't think I can say here.
Q. Suppose the engine was coming from Piper City to Chatsworth. Suppose you were at Chatsworth and the engine was coming from Piper City, how far could you see a head-light on the engine on that track? A. There are places in that track where that head-light will disappear, and there are places where I can see her again.
Q. Suppose the engine was standing where the accident occurred. How far could you see the head-light? A. I might be able to see it at Chatsworth, but I doubt it.
Q Isn't it true that you can see it? A. I have been at Chatsworth and could not see it sometimes.
Q. Is that the best answer you can give that sometimes you can see it at Chatsworth and sometimes you can't? A. There are certain positions in that track that you can't see the head-light at Chatsworth on account of the depressions in the track.
Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Sutherland, that with a head-light or any light at that bridge, that it is plainly visible on that track for at least two miles? A. I don't think so.
Q. How far is it visible? A. I have known, just as I have said before; I have been watching for trains both at Piper City—watching for trains coming from the West; they would disappear and come in view again. The same state of affairs would occur at Chatsworth on engines coming from the East.
Q. I would like to get from you, Mr. Sutherland, a statement in reference to how far you could see a light on that bridge coming from Chatsworth on that track? What distance? A. If there was a large fire, I might see it on the top of the second raise.
Q. How far is the second raise from the bridge? A. About a mile.
Q. Why was it, Mr. Sutherland, that you didn't see, if you can see a light for a mile, that you didn't see this burning bridge until you got within 300 feet of it? A. For the simple fact that the bridge was in embers. It showed evidence of having burned; it showed evidence of a little light over at the end of the fill. It was obscured by that.
Q. Is that the only explanation you can give, because the fire was in embers? A. Yes.
Q. Are you so constituted that you can't see fire except it's in the flame? A. I think not.
Q. You don't mean to say that you can't see the light of a fire whether in embers or otherwise, if it's light enough, the same distance you can see a flame? A. Those embers may have been obscured by some smoke.
Q. This was in the night time about 12 o'clock, and both sides of this bridge were burning when you struck it? A. It was burning after I struck it. I am satisfied it was burned before I struck it.
Q. Don't you know whether it was burning or not? A. I knew something was wrong with the bridge. I hadn't time, and the state of my feelings at that time expecting death, would not lead me to closely observe it.
Q. Did you see that fire when you got to it? A. Not within 500 feet of it. When I got up to it, I saw that the bridge was gone.
Q. Do you mean to say that you can't tell whether that bridge was burning on both sides or not? A. Yes.
Q. Was it burning on the side opposite to the one to which you were going? A. I stood up and looked for a short space of time into that, and looking direct at that bridge, I could not give you the exact state of that bridge at all further than that there was fire there and embers, and seemed to be more alive underneath.
Q. If it is true that this being in the night time, and both sides of this bridge aglow with fire, can you give the Commission any reason why you could not see any fire, or the light of this fire, any distance? A. I could not, further than the bridge; didn't seem to me to be a fire there. I didn't recognize fire there.
Q. Do you mean to say that you could not see any sign of the light of this burning bridge until you got within 300 feet of it? A I didn't think it was on fire in such a way until I struck it.
Q. You mean to say that with both of those sides aglow with fire that you could not see the light until you got within 300 feet of it? A. If she was flaming up.
Q. Do you mean to say that you could not see the fire until you got within 300 feet of it? A. I claim if the bridge was up in a blaze, I could have seen it; but such was not the case.
Q. Will you answer my question? Do you mean to say that you could not see the light of that fire in the condition the bridge was in? A. l am perfectly willing to answer your question.
Q. In the condition the bridge was in when you got there, I want to you if, assuming that bridge was aglow with fire on both sides, if you mean to be understood that you could not have seen the light of that fire until you got within 300 feet of it? A. Assuming that bridge was afire, I could see it further.
Q. How far? A. I could not tell.
Q. Why not? A. Because any man knows.
Q. Could you have seen it for a mile? A. I could not tell you that, not knowing the profile of the road there.
Q. What would prevent you from seeing any kind of a light that came from any fire in that bridge for the same distance that you could see the head-light? A. The profile.
Q. Well, at this second raise, what was to prevent you from seeing any kind of a light in that bridge? A. It would depend upon what light it gave forth.
Q. Do you mean to be understood that you could not have seen it as far as you could see the head-light of this engine, unless all the bridge was afire, and the flames going up? A. It certainly would have to flame up. I think that would be necessary before I could see it.
Q. If you can see a large fire that distance, why could you not see a small one? A. A large one would send forth more penetrating rays than a small one.
Q. It was total darkness at this place? A. It was dark.
Q. Are you a regular passenger engineer or a freight engineer? A. I am in the freight service, and if they demand me to go into the passenger service, I do so.
Q. Had you ever run out a passenger train on this road before this time? A. Not with an air brake engine.
Q. How many times had you pulled out a passenger train on this road before this time? A. Once.
Q. How long have you been in the company's employ as engineer? A. About four years.
Q. When did you pull out this train? A. A short train about a year.
Q. How long had you been in the employ of the company? A. About a year.
Q. Then it was three years before that, you pulled out this train? A. Yes.
Q. Your occupation as engineer had been confined to freight trains? A. Yes, on this road.
Q. And you didn't understand even the management of the air brakes? A. I did not say that at all.
Q, Did you understand the management of the brakes? A. I did.
Q. Isn't that the reason they put you in front of McClintock, because you did not understand how to work the brakes—these automatic brakes, or whatever they are? A. No. The reason why I was to go ahead was because my engine had no air brakes, and the second engine had.
Q. McClintock was a passenger engineer? A. Yes.
Q. What was the reason you were ahead of him? A. Because he had an air brake engine.
Q. How many cars would that air brake control? A. It would control that train easily.
Q. Was that the full capacity of it? A. They ran larger trains.
Q. Do you mean to say that this company ever ran out a larger train than that? A. Other companies do. Not that I know of.
Q. Was this the full capacity of that air brake? A. I don't know.
Q. If you understand the management of air brakes, why can't you tell what capacity it would have? A. There is a limit. I don't know what the limit might be.
Q. You don't know enough about them to know that? A. I know that it would control that number of cars. If you take, for instance, that number of cars you can stop that number easier than you can with one or two cars.
Q. Is that what you mean to be understood that the longer the train the easier to stop? To what extent? A. I could not exactly tell you.
Q. But you are certain that this train was easier stopped than a shorter train? A. There is an advantage in a greater number of cars in this way. Now, for instance, there is the usual number of air brakes on the engine. The more air brakes the easier to stop. There is an advantage in having a greater number of cars with air working on them to stop the momentum of this engine.
Q. Do you mean to say that you can stop a train with sixteen coaches easier than with one coach? A. Stop it about as easy.
Q. That is your judgment? A. Yes. There is this about that. The momentum that a large train would have in stopping these engines would be about balanced by the additional number of brakes applied. The difference in effect in stopping that train in my mind would be about balanced. That is, the air applied on this greater number of cars with this great momentum behind it, the force of the application of those brakes would overcome the weight of these engines, so in making the stop, it would make the stop just about the same as a less number of cars with a less momentum.
Q. You mean that this number of cars with this momentum and two engines, on a train with a large number of cars, there is necessarily more momentum than there is on one or two or three cars, but that the force of the brakes on this one, or two, or three cars will not effect a stop of this engine, as the force applied from a dozen or 15 cars, but the momentum is greater in one case than the other, so that it might be a stand off. That's the reason that you think that a longer train could be stopped as easily as a short one? A. Yes.
Q. And you think that this long train could be stopped as easily as one coach? Is that so? A. You mean one coach and one engine?
Q. Do you mean that this long train could have been stopped as easily as if it consisted only of one coach? A. It seemed to me it would.
Q. Is there a statistical table of stopping trains of various sizes going at various rates of speed, the distance in which they can be stopped, the appliances used? A. I glanced at some such table.
Q. Do you know what table it was? A. No.
Q. When you got within 300 feet of this burning bridge, you saw the fire? A. I saw what I supposed was a fire at the side of the track.
Q. You saw it at the side of the track? A. Yes.
Q. Do you mean to say that was the only place where you saw fire? A. It crossed my view for an instant.
Q. Did you see any light shining out from the middle of the bridge? A. Not a bit.
Q. No reflection on either side? A. No.
Q. Just a little on the side? A. Yes.
Q. Where? A. I don't know.
Q. Was it on the right side going out? A. On the left—South side.
Q. What was that fire? A. I could not tell.
Q. Was it flames? A. I saw a little active fire.
Q. To what extent? A. I could not tell.
Q. Were you looking down the track to see whether everything was intact on the bridge? A. A second or two after I was, I am satisfied.
Q. Why were you not looking to see if the bridge was intact? A. I did look in an instant after.
Q. Your attention was chiefly directed alone; the track to see if the track was in shape? A. That is generally the case.
Q. Then you did look along the track and across this bridge the next instant? A. Yes.
Q. Were the stringers and the posts gone or not? A. I could not tell.
Q  Why not, if you were looking at it? A. I saw something wrong with the bridge. When I got closer, I saw matters.
Q. Why can't you tell whether the ties and stringers on that bridge were intact? A. I was getting scared, probably.
Q. Why couldn't you see the condition of the bridge if you saw fire? A. I hadn't got so badly scared.
Q. You didn't see any fire or anything wrong at the top of the bridge until you saw this fire at the side? A. I saw that first.
Q. You must have been looking at the side before, instead of along the track. A. That caught my view first.
Q. After seeing this little fire on the side, you looked along the track and over this bridge, to see if anything was wrong on the bridge? A. You can't tell the condition of the bridge. I can tell you in my own words. My fireman, when I saw something wrong with the bridge, he apparently saw the same.
Q. I am asking you what you saw? A. He hallooed to me, "For God's sake, jump." He jumped, and I jumped down off of my side, on the right hand side, turned and grabbed the cab to go out. I recovered myself, and concluded not to. I stood up.
Q. When you first saw this little fire at the side of the bridge, what did you do with your engine? A. Nothing for a second. In a moment, I shut her off. I shut off steam.
Q. That would have a tendency to stop the engine? A. Not right there.
Q. It would have a tendency to slacken the speed, wouldn't it? A. No, not right there.
Q. What would be the tendency of that? A. She would go along as if going down hill. She would not get any more force from the steam.
Q. What did you do that for? A. That was a natural movement.
Q. You had no particular reason. What did you next do? A. I shut it off.
Q. How long did it remain that way? A. It remained shut off until I got down in the bridge and felt that shock.
Q. Didn't you open her out before you got into the bridge? A. No.
Q. What caused you to open it out then? A. I thought it would save my life. I made up my mind that I was going to get out if I could.
Q. You opened her clear out? A. Yes.
Q. That would cause her to plunge forward? Yes, if not too much obstruction.
Q. When you opened her out, did she plunge forward? A. She didn't increase her speed any from the speed we were going.
Q. Do you swear that when you pulled her entirely out, she didn't increase her speed any? A. I will explain—
Q. Can't you answer my question? A. There will be a misunderstanding if I don't tell.
Q. Do you mean to say that she didn't increase her speed any when you opened her out? Can't you answer that question? A. No, and give you a proper understanding.
Q. You can answer the question and make your explanation.
By Mr. Lee.—Q. Just tell what the result would be. A. When you get an engine steamed that way, to pull her wide open, it may give her a start for the moment. I pulled her wide open for the time being, not to increase the speed, but didn't leave her open until I got to Piper City, or didn't get quite there.
Q. You opened her out until you got off safe on the other side? A. Eased off on her.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. When you opened her out, isn't it a fact that the engine would plunge forward? A. I will tell you. She would naturally if she didn't meet with some obstruction.
Q. This engine was on the track? A. I don't know whether we was or not.
Q. Your engine never went off the track, as a matter of fact, did it? A. I felt myself sink down. She got a rough jar.
Q. Your engine was not off of that track at all? A. She was on the track, but I thought she was off the track the way she rolled.
Q. She was? Do you mean to say that your engine could have got off the track and got back? A. It is within the range of possibility.
Q. Is it within the range of probability? A. I hardly think so
Q. She didn't meet with any obstruction when she was sliding along the track? A. She met with an obstruction when she was sinking down the bridge.
Q. Do you mean to say that your engine sank into the bridge and was forced out? A. Yes, from the help I gave her.
Q. When you saw this fire, and when you shut off the steam in your engine, did you give any signal to the engineer back of you? A. No.
Q. Why not? A. I was paralyzed, I think.
Q. You were not so paralyzed but what you could shut off the steam, and when you got on the other side, slacken her up. You didn't give any signals? A. No.
Q. Within what distance were you of the bridge when you discovered the bridge was on fire? A. About 300 feet.
Q. How long did it take to make that 300 feet? A. I don't know. This was the time when my fireman hallooed, "For God's sake, jump." That was the time I shut my engine off and jumped, and recovered myself and turned around.
Q. What was the interval of time between the moment that you shut off the steam, and that you pulled her out? A. I could not tell.
Q. Have you any idea? A. No.
Q. Was not it just as easy for you to have signaled the engineer to put on brakes as to shut her off first, and then pull her out again? A. If I had thought of it. Of course, it would have been just as easy.
Q. When you and the fireman were talking as to whether to jump off or not, why didn't you order him to give the signal? A. We were not talking. He hallooed, "For God's sake, jump."
Q. Why didn't you tell him to give the signal to the other engineer? A. I had no chance.
Q. How soon did he jump? A. He disappeared right off.
Q. Suppose you had given the signal to the rear engine to put on the brakes, would they have stopped that train? A. No.
Q. They would have gone into the ditch? A. Yes.
Q. Did I understand you to say, Mr. Sutherland, when you pulled out the engine, pulled out the throttle, that it didn't increase the speed, you think? A. Not from the rate we were going down in there.
Q. You were going at full speed? A. No.
Q. Why would it not then increase the speed? A. I didn't leave it open long enough.
Q How long did you leave it open? A. Just a moment.
Q. You fully realized the importance of shutting her off immediately on getting on the other side of the bridge? A. No.
Q. When you say "moment," you mean a second? A. Yes. She was rolling around I thought she was off the track. I was making arrangements to jump. I was waiting for her to turn one way, I was going to jump the other. She had met with that jar and was jolting along from side to side you the track.
Q. Do you swear that was so? A. Yes.
Q. Which side was that? A. That was on the East side of the bridge.
Q. What interval of time was it between the time that you saw the fire on the side, and that you struck the bridge? A. I can't tell.
Q. At any rate you went 300 feet to that burning bridge without giving any signal to the engineer behind you to put on the brakes, simply deliberating as to whether you would remain there, or jump off? A. That is not the idea. When I saw the fire on the side of the track, it didn't look like a burning bridge or bridge at all. I was looking out of the front window.
Q. What did it look like? A. A little fire at one side of the track.
Q. Is that a common occurrence to see fires alongside of the track, particularly in day time? A. Once in a while.
Q. Did you ever see fires along the track at night, set by sparks from engines or some other way? A. I have seen fires along the track.
Q. Mr. Sutherland, you have already stated that this train could have been stopped in the same distance that one coach could have been stopped, if the train had consisted of one coach. Within what length of space could this train have been stopped? A. I could not tell.
Q. If you are able to tell that the train could have been stopped in the same distance as one coach, why can't you tell what distance the train could have been stopped? A. In stopping the train, it would have been owing a great deal to the brake fixtures.
Q. Assuming that they were all right? A. I thought pretty near the same.
Q. What length of space could the train have been stopped? A. I never made a test.
Q. You say you understand about stopping trains; why can't you tell without making a test? A. On passenger trains, you don't make a violent use of the air; you just partially expel the air from the train.
Q. Within what distance can an ordinary passenger train be stopped when you apply the brakes? A. A quarter of a mile.
Q. Do you mean to say that an ordinary passenger train can't be stopped in less than a quarter of a mile? A. It depends on circumstances, and the grade.
Q. Going at the rate of forty miles an hour, could it not have been stopped in less time than that; supposing everything was in good condition for stopping, and the grade just as this was? A. I don't think it could inside of a quarter of a mile.
Q. Do you mean to say that an engine and one coach with air brakes running down there, could not have been stopped within a quarter of a mile, if the air brakes had been applied? A. It's doubtful.
Q. Could it not have been stopped within 100 feet? A. No.
Q. Isn't it true going at the speed that this train went, with those air brakes in good order, that this train could have been stopped within a block? A. I doubt it.
Q. Have you not seen passenger trains stopped going at the rate of speed 35 or 40 miles an hour, stopped within less than a block going into the depot of a small station? A. No.
Q. Do you mean to say that with those air brakes and appliances that they have to shut off steam a quarter of a mile in order to stop at the station? A. They shut off further than that.
Q. Have you not repeatedly seen trains coming into small stations going at the rate of 40 miles an hour stopped within a half block? A. No.
Q. Could not that have been stopped by reversing both engines and applying the brakes? A. No.
Q. You don't think it could be done short on a quarter of a mile? A. No.
Q. How many pounds of steam did you have on your engine? A. 145 or 150.
Q. How much was it made to carry? A. Made to carry that.
Q. Any more? You had on all that she would safely carry? A. No.
Q. How much would she carry? A. 200.
Q. Do you mean that she was tested for 150 or 200 pounds? A. She was tested for that. It is useless to put more steam on an engine than she will handle a train without sliding.
Q. After a certain pressure of steam, she would not have enough adhesive power to hold down to the track? A. She would hold down easily 145 or 150.
Q Was she tested for 200? A. I believe so.
Q. That was the extent that she could safely carry? A. Undoubtedly more than that, but on locomotives they don't carry that extreme pressure.
Q. Did you have a steam brake on your engine? A. Yes.
Q. Did you use them in any way during this collision? A. Didn't have time to do any execution with it.
Q. I will ask you again, if you can give this Commission any explanation as to why, when you saw this fire within 300 feet of the bridge, as to why you could not reverse your engine, and whistle for the brakes to put on? A. It seemed to be to the side of the track and no danger whatever, and when I did get down, my fireman saw there was danger in the bridge, and hallooed to me to jump, and getting down consumed my time. I made up my mind to stay, and I did, and we went down to the bridge.
Q. Did you examine this tender to see where she broke? A. Yes.
Q. Where was it broken? A. The coupling bar was broken in two.
Q. You saw that? A. Afterwards.
Q. Where is it now? A. I don't know.
Q. Where was it when you saw it? A. A portion of it was with the engine.
Q. That's the portion that you saw? A. I believe so.
Q. What became of it? A. I don't know.
Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Engineer, if it isn't true that what you did there was calculated to break away that engine from the train? A. No.
Q. Was not that the purpose of what you did there to break away from the train, and save yourself? A. No.
Q. It had this effect however? A. Yes.
By Mr. Lee—Q. How long were you engaged in railroad business prior to going into the employ of the T., P. & W.? A. Was running about four years before going on the T., P. & W. as engineer.
Q. Had you had experience before that? A. Firing.
Q. On what roads did you fire? A. C., B. & Q.
Q. How long were you on that road? A. I must have been on there about four years as fireman and engineer.
Q. Were you engaged on any road in the special capacity of fireman and engineer alone? A. Yes.
Q. On what road? A, On the Wabash system.
Q. Where did you run? A. To Moberly, Mo.; on that district. I was running there and was sent over to Peoria to help out roads.
Q. Had you any experience during your employment with the Wabash or C., B. & Q. in running passenger trains?  A. I had on the Wabash.
Q. How long did you run passenger trains on the Wabash? A. Occasional trips.
Q. What were you engaged in prior to firing on the road? A. I was book­keeper.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Isn't it the duty of the engineer in front in a train of this kind to signal the engineer behind when necessity requires it? A. Each signals the other, and the other responds.
Q. You have a system of signals to warn him of danger and to put on brakes? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know anything about the safety of making up trains in respect to putting these sleepers behind or before? A. It is the practice usually to put sleepers behind.
Q. Would it be safer to put the sleepers in front in a case of accident of this kind? What effect would it have? A. It would not necessarily be a sleeper. It depends on the strength of the car.
Q. Sleepers are heavier? A. They look heavier; I don't know whether they are or not.
Q. Have you any opinion in respect to the safety? A. I have never given it my thought. That is the way of making up those trains usually.

JOHN ROGERS, RECALLED.

Mr. Rogers, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus—Q. You were the fireman on the front engine of this train? A. Yes.
Q. Acted in conjunction with Sutherland? A. Yes.
Q. Were you on the lookout before your engine struck this bridge? A. Yes.
Q. How far were you from the bridge when you saw the fire? Fire in the bridge, anywhere on the bridge or about the bridge? A. I saw a fire aside the track; I don't know whether it was at the bridge or not; right alongside the track.
Q. That was the same side that Sutherland saw it on? A. Yes.
Q. You were both on the same side then? A. I was not on his side, but saw the fire on his side.
Q. Were you on the right side or left side of the engine? A. Left.
Q. Could you see the fire then on the right? A. I could look over.
Q. Did you see any fire on the left side? A. No.
Q. You could see clear across and see it on the right side? A. Yes.
Q. How far were you from the bridge when you saw it? A. I first saw a little small blaze. I guess it was somewhere within 200 or 300 yards.
Q. The fire? A. I saw a small blaze.
Q. On which side of the track was that blaze? A. On the right hand side going East.
Q. Have you got that right, within 200 or 300 yards of the bridge? A. I should judge about that.
Q. What was there to prevent you seeing that fire, or the light of that burning bridge a mile before you got to it? A. It had gone out, I guess.
Q. The blaze had gone out? A. I didn't see any blaze.
Q. What was to prevent you from seeing the light of the glowing timbers though there was no blaze for a little while? A. I don't know whether the timbers were all gone, or what it was. I could not see it until I hallooed.
Q. When you got within 200 or 300 yards of it, you didn't see anything but the blaze on the side? A. No.
Q. What prevented you from seeing it? A. I don't know.
Q. What did you do when you saw the blaze? A. Nothing, just stood there watching up the track and engine. Didn't do anything or say anything. Could not when I saw the blaze.
Q. Why didn't you speak to the engineer? A. I saw little fires before along the track.
Q. And you kept looking at this little fire, and not at the bridge at all? A. Just as easy for me to see the bridge if there was that much light.
Q. Did you look at the bridge? A. When I jumped off', could not see the bridge.
Q. The blaze was alongside the track, wasn't it, why could you not see it? A. I don't know.
Q. Didn't see any fire there? A. No.
Q. Why didn't you speak to the engineer when you saw fire on the side? A. As I told you before, I had seen fires, fellows building fires and laying down side of them, and one thing and another like that, and didn't think anything about it.
Q. It is customary to see fires inside the track near the bridges? A. I didn't say near the bridges.
Q. Did you ever see a fire near a bridge in that way before? A. I don't know as I did so close to the bridge before.
Q. You never saw a fire like that before? It was not a customary matter for you to see a fire near a bridge? A. I see fires along the track once in a while.
Q. Is it customary to see fires along the track, or had it been customary before this accident? Was that a customary matter along that road? A. I have seen them.
Q. Was it a usual matter? A. I seen them several times alongside.
Q. This summer? A. Yes.
Q. Near the bridges? A. Not that I know of any where near bridges.
Q. You say you didn't speak to the engineer. Did you speak to him at anytime before you struck the bridge? A. Yes.
Q. When? A. I hallooed to him to jump off.
Q. What for? A. To save his life.
Q. When did you halloo to him? How long after you saw the fire at the side? A. I just had time to jump.
Q. How long after you saw this fire at the bridge, did you call to the engineer to jump off? A. We were right on to it.
Q. How far was it? A. I could not say.
Q. You could not say. How far from it? A. Right close to it.
Q. Why didn't you tell him to whistle on the brakes? A. I didn't think it would do any good.
Q. You didn't think about the people back of you at that time at all? You were thinking simply about yourself and the engineer? A. I would have hallooed to the people the same if I could.
Q You didn't make any effort, you and the engineer, to put those brakes on? A. I don't know what he did; I didn't.
Q. You don't know how far you were from the bridge when you saw the fire? A. I saw the light in the bridge; I could not tell.
Q. There wasn't anything to obstruct your view from the time you got up on the second rise until you got to Chatsworth? A. No.
Q. Do you know Ed. Culver, groceryman? A. No.
Q. Don't you know him? A. No.
Q. Do you know in what condition the brakes were on this train? A. No.
Q. Did you have a conversation with Ed. Culver in which you stated to him that the brakes were not in good condition? A. Not that I know of.
Q. You don't know what condition they were in? A. No.
Q. Did you make that remark in his presence? A. I never said the brakes were not in good order.
Q. Did you know whether they were or not? A. I don't know. The train seemed hard to stop.
Q. Have you expressed your opinion as to the condition of those brakes to anyone? A. No.
Q. You said that you thought the train was hard to stop? A. Yes.
Q. In your examination before did you say anything as to whether you saw the fire but paid no attention to it? A. Some one asked me if I paid any attention to the fire when I first saw it; I said no.
Q. Was that the fire on the side of the track? A. Yes.
Q. How far were you from the bridge when you jumped off of the engine? A. I was right down some place where the bridge was.
Q. When you jumped from the engine, you must have been pretty near to the bridge? A. Yes, the cars were right close to me.
Q. When you first saw that there was danger, and concluded to jump, how did the bridge look then? You had got so that you could see it? A. It looked like live coals.

J. M. WHELPLEY.

Mr. Whelpley, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lee—Q. Where do you reside? A. Jersey City, New Jersey.
Q. What is your business? A. Agent for the Lawrence Railway Brake Company; something new.
Q. You may state how recently you came to Peoria with reference to that brake. A. My impression is three weeks since last Tuesday.
Q. Were you here at the time that the excursion train went to Niagara Falls? A. Yes.
Q. State if you were acquainted with McClintock, the engineer. A. I was acquainted with him.
Q. How long have you known him? A. My impression is I met him during the Centennial the first time at Philadelphia. Had very little acquaintance with him at that time. He recognized me; I didn't know who he was. I was with him a great deal since I have been here.
Q. Were you at the depot when the train started? A. Yes. I was on McClintock's engine.
Q. State any conversation you had with him about that trip. A. What would interest you, I presume, is this. I asked him where his other engine was. He said, "It is across the bridge. We don't run double-headers over the bridge here." I says, "Why, do you consider it dangerous?" "Not at all," he says, and I think that was about all that was said about that. What caused me to make the remark was, that I heard they were going to run a double-header. He appeared in the best of spirits, and invited me to ride out to the State Line with him. I was on the engine until he opened the throttle.
Q. Did he express any fear about going out on a double-header? A. Not the slightest. He didn't consider it any risk at all.
Q. What experience have you had in railroading, and in what companies and capacities? A. Twenty-one years; capacity, fireman, brakeman and passenger conductor on the Roanoke & Ogdensburg road; on Prospect Park & Coney Island; also on the New York & Pennsylvania road, running from New York to Philadelphia.
Q. How long were you engineering on that road? A. I can't remember exactly. I ran the locomotive a short time on the Prospect Park & Coney Island road.
Q. You were the engineer, I believe that had charge of the engine that was attached to the train that brought Garfield's remains West? A. I was conductor of the train that brought Garfield's remains from Washington to Elberon.
Q. You may state if you have had any experience in the construction of railways. A. Very limited.
Q. On what road? A. Coney Island road.
Q. Considerable work to do there? A. Yes, considerable. I am not an expert railroad man.
Q. State whether you have known of what is known as ''double-headers" being run on passenger trains on the road on which you were employed. A. There had been none run on the New York division for a number of years, as it was unnecessary. They used engines that would haul twenty passenger coaches. They had no heavy grade; four feet to the mile was the heaviest they had.
Q. Did they run double-headers on the Ogdensburg road? A. Yes.
Q. On passenger trains? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have occasion to go over the East end of the Toledo, Peoria and Western road out of this city, running East? A. Four times. I came over here once, and went over on a trial trip and back; I didn't go all the way over the road. Have been since on a trial trip with my brake applied to engine and cars.
Q. State what you know of the general construction of the road. A. A first class road for the West, as compared with Eastern roads.
Q. You may state in your judgment, and based upon your experience, whether it would be dangerous to run a double-header on passenger trains? A. Perfectly safe, in my judgment. I am not an expert, as I said before.
By Mr. Niehaus.—Q. Would you consider it as safe as a train with a single engine? A. Just as safe.
Q. What was it you inquired of McClintock on the engine? A. I asked him where his engine was; I thought he was going to have a double-header. He said the engine was on the other end of the bridge. Gave me number 21. He said they didn't run double-headers over that bridge. I asked him if there was danger. He said, "Not the slightest."
Q. The question was in reference to the Illinois bridge? A. I intended to convey the idea, the whole road.
Q. You considered when you asked the question that there might be in his mind a thought that it would be dangerous? A. No, what caused me to ask the question was his own remark that they didn't run double-headers over that bridge.
Q. That was the reason you asked the question as to whether it was dangerous? A. Yes.
Q. Are you in the company that furnished these brakes for locomotives? A. Yes; mine is the power brake. They used the Westinghouse brake on that train.
Q. Have you any experience with the kind of brakes on this train? A. Yes.
Q. Have you any experience with reference to stopping trains? A. Yes.
Q. Within what distance, with the brakes in good order, could a train going 35 miles an hour, with sixteen coaches, be stopped? A. 1,000 feet.
Q. Not less than that? A. I would not swear positively. That is my judgment.
Q. Don't you think that a train of this size with those air brakes on, could have been stopped within the distance of a block—300 feet? A. I don't think it could be done.
Q. Could it not have been stopped if both of these engines had reversed? A. I have an opinion; I don't know whether it would be justice to state it under the circumstances. I will say this. The way I think now, I should have tried to stop it.
Q. Isn't it your opinion that with this train, the two engines reversed, and the brakes put on, that it could have been stopped within a block? A. With both engines reversed, and the sand box open, and with all the brakes on the train, my impression is that it could not have been stopped.
Q. Within two blocks? A. I think it could.
Q. How much more than a block? A. In a block and a half, perhaps.
Q. Then if could be stopped within less distance than 200 yards. Your judgment would be that it could have been stopped within 450 feet? That is a block and a half. A. I didn't say positively. I said perhaps.
Q. I am asking for your judgment. Did you give that as about the distance? A. It's a matter that I have never seen tested. I have made very quick stops with the Westinghouse air brake.
Q. You think in about that distance, with the engines reversed and the air brakes on, it could have been stopped? A. It is my judgment that it could, provided they were not running more than 30 miles an hour.
Q. How about 35 miles an hour or five miles more. Could it be stopped? A. I am not an expert.
Q. I am trying to get at your judgment whatever that's worth? A. I think not.
Q. I am asking how much further it would take. You say it could have been stopped inside of two blocks going at 30 miles an hour? A. That's my judgment.
Q. Supposing it was going five miles faster, how much further would it take? A. I could not tell.
Q. You can't? If you can tell the distance within which it could be stopped at 30 miles, why can't you at 35? A. You are relying too much on my answer as an expert.
Q. I am asking for your judgment. A. You want me to give you a positive answer. About 100 feet. A third of a block further.
Q. A seventh of the distance, it would take a third of a block to stop? A. In my judgment, yes.
By Mr. Lee—Q. If all the brakes had been put on, and the engines reversed, how much could the speed of that train have been diminished in 100 yards? The first 100 yards after they were put on. A. I can't tell you.
Q. You have no judgment about that? A. It could have been slackened, of course, how much I can't say.
Q. If it could have been stopped within two blocks, would the speed not have stopped at least one-half? A. No. It would take a scientific man to figure it out.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Do you know of any table that is out with reference to stopping trains? A. That Burlington test. I have seen something in the Railway Age.
Q. How long ago? A. Those tests are got up for the occasion.
Q. How long ago was that published? A. This last test, and about a year since.

E. D. CULVER.

Mr. Culver, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lee.—Q. Where do you reside? A. City.
Q. How long have you resided here? A. Twenty-five years.
Q. You are in the grocery business here? A. Yes.
Q. You were formerly an engineer on the road? A. Yes.
Q. How many years had you been an engineer? A. Ten.
Q. Do you know this man Rogers that was fireman on the excursion train? A. I saw him today for the first time.
Q. Did you have any conversation with him in reference to the brakes on that train? A. None, whatever.
Q. Did you hear any conversation that he had with any one else with reference to that matter? A. None at all.
Q. Did you have a conversation with any of the brakemen or employees of that train with reference to the brakes? A. Not of that train.
Q. Have you, during the course of your employment as engineer, had any experience in the stopping of trains? A. Some.
Q. I will get you to state, if you can, at what distance a train of this kind composed of day coaches and chair cars and sleepers, say fifteen coaches with two engines, at what distance do you think it could be stopped if both engines were reversed, and all the brakes put on, running at the rate of from 30 to 35 miles an hour? A. My idea today would have been that it could have stopped at 300 feet if they knew they had to stop, if the bridge had been burned or washed out.
Q Within 300 feet; that is a block? A. Yes. In the night I don't believe he would know it was out.
Q. Mr. Culver, how many years were you on the T., P. & W. as engineer? A. I could not say exactly; about six or seven years.
Q. I'll get you to state whether in going along the road at night, was it difficult to exactly locate a fire that you saw ahead of you some distance? A. It was a very difficult thing.
Q. Does the light of the head-light interfere? A. I don't know as it's that. If the fire is some little distance ahead of you, you can't generally locate.
Q. Does the head-light interfere? A. No.
Q. Do you think that the head-light shining into the fire would bother you any distance, say half a mile? A. It would bother, so that you could not tell, I think, half mile off, or a mile off, whether it was the head-light or burning bridge
Q. Was it usual or customary, if you happened to see a fire alongside of the road, to stop your train? A. No.
Q. In saying that you could not locate it, do you mean to say that you could not tell whether it was alongside of the track or in the middle? A. If it was a straight track, you could locate it better than if it was a grade.
Q. If you were to see a small fire alongside of the road, was it customary for you or any of the engineers to stop your trains to discover the source? A. I don't think it was; they are not uncommon things to see.
Q. Occasioned by sparks? A. Sometimes, and sometimes burning in small places; that is a smoldering fire sometimes left by the track man along there. A man would not make very good time if he would stop at all those little fires.
Q. At this time of the year, is it not a fact that there are a good many fires alongside of the road resulting from combustible material? A. In the fall of the year, it is more usual.
Q. Well, at the time? A. Yes, from burning grass.
Q. Supposing this bridge to have been fourteen or fifteen feet wide, and from eight to ten feet high, with timbers on both sides, and those timbers on both sides aglow with fire, at what distance do you think that fire could have been seen, or the reflection of it, from the engine coming along the track where the vision was unobstructed, where nothing was in the way—a straight line? A. Probably for a long distance, but I don't believe a man could locate it very far.
Q. He might not know the exact place on the track, but how far do you think that fire could have been seen, nothing to obstruct the view? A. About a mile; may be further.
Q. Do you know where this bridge was located? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know all of the grades? A. Yes, every foot of the road.
Q. Do you recollect a down grade going to the West of the bridge? A. Yes.
Q. Now, with a tram of fifteen cars, two engines, going at the rate of 30 miles, going down grade, when you reach the momentum with those cars, would not the descent give it an impetus? When the brakes were put on, in what distance do you suppose it could be stopped on the down grade under those circumstances? A. 400 or 500 feet, that is making all the effort you could.
Q. What would be the effect on the train, stopping it at the rate of 30 miles an hour on down grade there, within 300 or 400 feet? A. I think there would be considerable danger of throwing the engine from the track in reversing.
Q. What would be the danger, if any, in reversing engines at the rate of 30 or 40 miles an hour? A Great danger; tearing them to pieces; tearing cylinder heads out. Great strain upon it.
Q. Would not the reaction tend to throw the cars off of the track? A. Considerable danger.
Q. What effect would it have upon the track? A. I don't know as it would injure the track. If the train wheels should slide, it would injure the track a little.
Q. Is there a tendency if it should stop suddenly with great momentum, of tearing up the track? A. I don't think it would injure the track any.
Q. What effect would it have stopping on a bridge? A. Considerable strain on the bridge. Still, the bridge would have to be longer than this to get a great deal of strain. It would have some effect.
Q. You were thoroughly acquainted with this bridge? A. I think so.
Q. You may state whether you considered that as well as the other small bridges along the road, or the large ones, safe. A. I have not been there in six years.
Q. You know nothing about it? A. No. Nothing more than the location. I just know where it is and the size of it.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Something was asked you about the effect of reversing and putting on brakes? Is there any other way of stopping quickly? A. The brakes ought to hold it 400 or 500 feet.
Q. Is there any other way but by reversing and putting on brakes to stop the train suddenly. A. That's the only way.
Q. How long were you an engineer? A. Ten years.
Q. What roads were you on besides this? A. I., B. & W., P., D. & E., a short time; Rock Island & Peoria about two years.
Q. Had you any experience with running trains with two engines? A. Several times.
Q. What do you think of the propriety of that method of running trains? A. I don't know but what it's all right. I didn't like to couple any; never had any accidents.
Q. How do you subject those two engines to a single will? What is the arrangement? A. They work very well. I don't like to couple in and work together.
Q What is your objection? A. I don't like to have another engine there.
Q. Suppose you were on the forward engine? A. I don't like to have another behind me.
Q. Was it this that if he didn't respond to the signals you gave? A. They have got to do it.
Q. Wasn't that the ground of your fear? A. Crossing long trestle works there is great weight. I always preferred running alone.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Is there any appliance in use, by which the brakes on the first engine could be applied at once to the engine behind it, and to the cars constituting the train? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Then the use of the brakes on the engine would necessarily to some extent be connected with the other engine? A. You could not use air brakes on both engines.
Q. Why not? A. We got to have a connection through the train with both engines.
Q. Could not one engine be connected with the engine behind it as that engine is with the car behind it? A. I never saw it done.
Q. Is there any reason why it could not be? A. You would have to connect it with the hose too tight, and that would be in the way of the engine behind it.
Q. I am only asking for information. A. I don't think it can be done satisfactorily.
Q. Have you any system of signals among you that could be responded to promptly? A. Yes, the whistle is generally used.
Q. Anything but the whistle? A. Lamp signals.
Q. You have never seen any appliance by which the forward engine could be subject to the second engine behind it? A. No.
Q. Don't you think that it is desirable that it should be done? A. Yes, if two engines were to be run together.
Q. Do you consider it as safe to run two engines in that way as to run one in one train? A. In my opinion, it would not be as safe.
Q What would be the danger? A. The great weight would be one thing.
Q. Suppose there would be no long bridges? A. It would be just the same.
Q. If the bridges were all fifteen feet in length, would it make any difference. A. I think not.
Q. The fact that one of the engines behind the other on a short bridge—would that make any difference with a long train? A. Not on so short a bridge.
Q. Would it endanger the bridge? A. I think not.
Q. In addition to the greater weight, of the two engines, would not there be a difference in being able to manage a train? Could not one engine and engineer manage a train better than if there were two engineers and two engines? A. I think so. You would have to hold the weight of the extra engine. Two engineers and two engines could not act so prompt as where there was one engine and one engineer.
Q. The one in front would have to signal the one behind, and that would be some additional disadvantage? A. Yes, only for a second. As soon as the signal is given, the rear engineer acts upon the signal in a short space of time.
Q. Would it be practicable to have each engine connected with the air brakes, and connect the first engine with the second engine? A. I don't think it could be done very well.
Q. If the first engine could operate on the brakes clear through the train, then the second engine would have to be signaled to inform them of its motion? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any brake that could be applied in that way? A. You could have a steam brake on the engine. That would take the weight of that engine off the train if they had a good steam brake.
Q. I didn't know, as you have been a railroad man so long, but that you had run trains with two engines, or that you would have some ideas of your own on that subject. A. Never thought they could couple up in that way.
Q. Have you been living here in Peoria all this time? A. Yes, quit railroading six years ago, and settled down.

Letitia McClintock.

Mrs. McClintock, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Please state your given name? A. Letitia.
Q. Something has been said about your husband being unwilling to go as an engineer on this train. State what he said, if anything, in regard to that. A. When he was eating his supper he said he wished he did not have to go out. He said, "Mamma, I wish I did not have to go out tonight." I asked him why, if he was not feeling well; because I never heard him say anything of the kind before in my life. He said, "Yes, he felt well, but he did not like to go out with another man ahead of him—he said he would have another engineer ahead of him." I asked him why he did not go in front himself, and he said he had the air brakes and could not, and he said he did not like to pull so many cars, that he had a heavy train. That is the most he said. He seemed as cheerful and happy and jolly as he ever was.
Q. Had he ever gone out with a double-header before? A. No, sir, I don't think he had; he never spoke of it. He was a man of a very cheerful and jolly disposition and I never heard him complain. He never said as much as that to me before. I thought possibly he had not been feeling well; he had not slept much the night before and he had had a little billious attack before.
Q. That was the reason he gave, was it, that there was another engine ahead of him? A. Yes, and it was such a heavy train.
Q. Did he make any remark about having another party to see for him—that he did not like to trust to another man's eyes? A. No. He did not talk much about his business in the house. He did not say that to me. My husband had been so busy and out on the road that I had scarcely seen him for sometime; he had been up the night before—he came in the night before at about 10 o'clock and got up at about 1. He was a very careful man. I did not want to wake him so soon, but he said I must. "Mamma, I must see that everything is all right; I must go off on that excursion." He always was very careful, and wanted to see that everything was all right.
Q. Did he say anything about that he would prefer to have the cars go in sections instead of all in one train? A. Not to me he did not. He came home—he was in a hurry—he came home to supper and he said this as he was eating supper.
He would not say anything to worry me. I was not feeling well that day—he was most through supper when he said that.
Q. Do you recollect of his saying anything in reference to making a protest to Mr. Armstrong? A. No, sir; if that happened it happened afterwards; but it seems very much like my husband to do that if he did not like it. He did not tell me that he had spoken to Mr. Armstrong—he did not say anything about it to me; but he was always very outspoken; he would have been apt to have done so if he got nervous about going out that way.
Q. You think if he had felt so he would have said so to Mr. Armstrong. A. I think he would. I never had any fears for my husband, because he took extra precautions and all that, he never took a risk of any kind in his life; he was an extra careful man about everything; I never thought that anything of this kind could happen to him, I never felt that anything could happen to his train and I don't feel if my husband had been in front the accident would have happened; he had a most wonderful pair of eyes, he had them tested a short time ago, and if he was not sure of anything he would inquire and find out about it whether they had to lose time or not.
Q. Did he ever say anything about the other engineer? A. No. he never did; he was not apt to make remarks about any other people.
Q. Did he on that occasion say anything about this engineer in particular? A. No, sir. I asked him who was going in front of him and he said Sutherland, a freight engineer.
Q. And he said the reason he had to take the second engine was because he had the airbrakes to take care of? A. Because he had the air brakes; and he told me how long it would take to pump the air for seventeen cars, but I don't remember just how long he said it would take. He very seldom said so much about his business affairs to me.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Did you ever hear him say anything about his preference as to taking out special trains, regarding it as a mark of confidence? A. No, I never did. I have heard him say that he disliked above all things to take out an excursion train. He told me the first of the week that he did not think he would go out; I went to my mother's and he said he thought he would come out unless he had to go on the excursion; he said they wanted his engine; but he was one of the best engineers on the road and they wanted to send him out.
He regarded the engine as the safest part of the train; his brother thought just so; he never thought anything would happen to Ed; because he thought they had a better chance, because if he saw danger he would reverse and then jump had done so, you know; and he could make a stop in a very short time. He told me of a circumstance across the river here. There was a large piece of timber of some kind obstructing the railroad, and he stopped in such a wonderfully short time; he told me about it, but the circumstances has slipped my mind.
Q. He was regarded as one of the most competent engineers on the road? A. He was a careful man every way.
Q. He had been there about twenty years, had he not? A. Twenty-one. He was careful in everything; he was a man that was fond of shooting, and he took extra precautions in handling a gun, and about every little thing he was careful.
By Mr. Niehaus.—Q. This conversation you have mentioned was just before he started, you say? A. Yes, when he was eating supper; he went immediately afterwards. That was a good deal for a man like him to say". We have been married over eleven years and I never heard him say even that much before, and he has run very hard some of the time.
By Mr. Lee.—Q. I think there were several had presentiments? A. I don't think my husband had a presentiment, but it was against his better judgment. I think he did not think it was a good way to run a train, because if my husband had had a presentiment I don't think he would have gone out.

Piper City, August 29, 1887.

J. M. MASON, RECALLED.

Mr. Mason, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Niehaus —Q. What is your name? A. J. M. Mason.
Q. You are the station agent here at Piper City? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You remember the night of the accident do you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To this Niagara excursion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember the day the coroner's jury adjourned to, after the first meeting? A. No, sir.
Q. Don't you remember? A. I don't remember.
Q. Were you a witness before the coroner? A. Yes, sir; I think it was Tuesday. but I wouldn't swear to it
Q You were not a witness before them until after the adjourned meeting, were you? A. I believe I was not. I don't remember. I didn't pay much attention to it.
Q. Did you as agent ever receive a cautionary telegram front headquarters regarding this excursion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Addressed to all agents? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is that telegram? A. I think it is in the office.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Did you give a copy of that before? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. What is the date of it? A. 10th.
Q. Of August? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you receive that telegram? A. I think it was in the forenoon.
Q. What day? A. The 10th.
Q. Did you receive more than one telegram directed in that way? A. No, sir, only one; to all agents. I received another to section foremen.
Q. You only received one telegram dated the 10th, directed to agents? A. I received another addressed to me with some other agents, regarding flagging.
Q. When? A. Afternoon of the same day.
Q. What telegram was it that you received on the 15th of August in the forenoon about 10 o'clock dated August 10th, directed to all agents? A. It was relative to fires, that is to agents cautioning them to be careful about fires, and notify people to be careful of their property near the railroad track. On the 15th? A. I think so.
Do you know the reason that was dated the 10th? A. No, sir. Where is that telegram? A. I think it is in the office.
Q. Will you produce it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This telegram in reference to inspecting the track, that was directed to the section men, what date did that bear? A. 9th of August. I received it on the 10th, in the morning.
Q. What time in the morning? A. A little after I had opened the office; a little after 7 o'clock.
Q. Did you communicate that to the section men? A. Yes, sir, through the road master; I sent it out on the first train.
Q. When was that? A. Between 10 and 11.
Q. You sent it to the section men through him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the 10th? A. Yes, sir. I wouldn't be sure but what I changed the date on it. It said tomorrow, and I may have changed it to the 10th. I am not sure, but I know I spoke about it.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Did you have any talk with anybody on the railroad train the day after this accident? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were you riding on a railroad the next day after this accident happened? A. No sir, I don't think I left the town.
Q. Did you the day following that? A. I don't think I did; no sir.
Q. Do you remember having a conversation with anybody about the fire? A. No, sir. Mr. Walrich spoke about the light after I told them the train was half an hour late, and I think I stepped to the side of the walk and looked West, and I said I could not see any light, that it must be at Chatsworth.
Q. Did he tell you he saw it? A. He spoke about a light, but I am sure that I did not see that light.
Q. Were you out early in the evening? A. No, sir, not on the track.
Q. You say that you were not out of town the next day, nor the day following? A. I don't think I was.
Q. Do you remember of telling some one on the train that you were the operator at Piper City, and that you saw the light? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there any other operator here but you? A. There was a boy here, but he was not around that night.

W. J. CLARK

Mr. Clark, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. W. J. Clark.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Piper City.
Q. What is your business? A. Merchant.
Q. How long have you resided here? A. I have lived here for 10 years with the exception of a year and a half.
Q. Were you here on the 10th of August? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything of this accident that happened on the T.. P. & W. Ry.? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us—did you go to that wreck after it happened? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You can tell us whether you know anything of any fire being on the track between here and Chatsworth that day or night? A. I saw the reflection in the evening.
Q. What time? A. All the time between 9 and 11. I first saw it at 9.
Q. Where did it appear to be, and what was its appearance? A. At first I thought it was a head-light.
Q. Why did you think it was? A. I thought it was about time for the excursion, and it looked like a head-light.
Q. You just saw the reflection and not the fire? A. Sometimes we could see fire that resembled a head-light.
Q. A blaze? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you form any idea as to the location? A. I thought it was some place West of the county line between that and Chatsworth.
Q. How far is the county line from here? A. Two and one-half miles.
Q. How far is it from the bridge? A. It is about a quarter of a mile East of where the accident happened.
Q. From its appearance you first thought it was a head-light. Did it change its appearance in any way so as to induce you to change your opinion? A. I came to the conclusion that it was not a head-light because the train was late.
Q. In that time did it change its appearance? A. I could not see much change.
Q. When did you last see it before hearing of the accident? A. At a quarter of 11 when I went home.
Q. What was its appearance at that time? A. I could see no blaze; nothing but the reflection.
Q. Was it cloudy? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you first observed it? A. All during the evening.
Q. Did it appear as strong when you last saw it, as at first? A. I should think it did. There were changes, sometimes it would look a little brighter.
Q. Did it appear to be scattered about like burning grass? A. It didn't appear to be scattered much.
Q. Seemed to be in one locality? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the character of the ground between here and that bridge? A. Several grades.
Q. How much of a grade; do you know? A. No, I do not.
Q. Have you observed since what the height of an object or fire had to be, in order to be seen on the bridge from here? A. No, sir.
Q. You went to the wreck when you heard of the accident? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did you observe any fire between here and there? A. I rode on a caboose.
Q. Was your attention called to any ties being on fire? A. No, sir, not that evening. The next morning I walked from the wreck, and I saw places where ties had been burning.
Q. Did you observe any appearances of fire West of the bridge? A. I didn't go West of the bridge.
Q. Did you call the attention of anybody to that light? A. I don't think I did.
Q. Were there other persons about the depot? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were they? A. There was quite a lot of people there.
Q. Are any of them here now? A. I think Mr. Jones is here.
Q. Do you recollect any other persons? A. Wm. McKinney. Mr. Madden, and I think Mr. Gibson.
Q. You discussed this appearance at the time did you? A. I don't know as I discussed it, but there was a talk that there was a fire or a head-light.
Q. That was the subject of discussion? A. Yes, sir, and they all decided that it was a fire on the track.
Q. What hour was it that the discussion took that shape? A. Between 10 and 11.
Q. Did anybody call the attention of the agent to it? A. I cannot say.
Q. Was he where he could hear your discussion? A. I think he was in the office.
Q. Who is the section boss here? A. Mr. Reed.
Q. Was he about there when the discussion was going on? A. I didn't see him.
Q. Were any of the section men around there at the time? A. Not that I saw.
Q. You went down to the wreck to see it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see or hear anything of any pillaging at the time? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see anything of that kind going on? A. No, sir.
Q. Did am of the wounded persons complain of being robbed? A. Not that I heard of.
Q. Did you help get the people, out of the wreck? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Until we brought a car load back here; until about daylight.
Q. Were the dead all out of the wreck when you left there? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you go back when the second car load was brought away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When? A. About 7.
Q. Were the dead all removed then? A. No, sir.
Q. Who had charge of removing them? A. I cannot say.
Q. Did anybody seem to have charge—was the wrecking train there when you came away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they doing anything? A. They were working on it.
Q. Mow long did you stay that time? A. Between 10 and 11.
Q. Had they got the dead all out then? A. All but a few that could not be taken out until some of the cars were moved.
Q. Did you see them remove the cars? A. They had not done anything much towards moving them when I left.
Q. You didn't see that process? A. No, sir.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You say you had been watching that fire for how long—when did you first see it? A. About 9 o'clock.
Q. Then you kept your eye on it, and noticed fire about 11 o'clock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it become something of a talk around there that it was a fire on the railroad? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you say it looked to be? A. West of the county line in some of the cuts.
Q. How far is that from this place? A. The county line is 2 1/2 miles.
Q. Could a man running from here on an engine—running in that direction, see the light? If a train should be running West, couldn't he have seen that light pretty near all the way? A. I should think so.
Q. Are you acquainted with the ground between Chatsworth and that bridge? A. Some.
Q. Don't it seem to you as though an engineer could have seen that light at Chatsworth from the reflection almost as well as you could see it from here? A. I think there are some deeper cuts between Chatsworth and the wreck than between the wreck and here. I don't know how a train would look coming this way.
Q. You don't know how far it is from the last cut to the bridge coming this way? A. I don't.
Q. You could see it burning from here? A. Sometimes you could, and sometimes you could see the reflection. Two or three times we noticed a little blaze; other times we could only see the reflection.
Q. You think an engineer going West from here could have seen it almost any time? A. I think he could.
Q. Where were you standing? A. On the platform.
Q. Coming from the other direction, if the cut was not  very deep, you could see it as well as going from this way? A. I don't understand you.
Q. If you were coming from Chatsworth you could see it as well, if there were no high places intervening? A. I think so.
Q. Was the telegraph operator there at that time? A. In his office.
Q. You don't know whether he paid any attention to this or not? A. I don't know.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Do you remember whether anybody called his attention to the head-light, and he said that it was too soon for the train? A. Not that I know of, I didn't hear it.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. You said you first saw it about 9 o'clock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Last time? A. About a quarter of 11.
Q. How many times did you notice this fire between 9 and 11 o'clock? A. Several times.
Q. But you noticed no change in the appearance of it from the first time up to the last? A. In general appearance I didn't notice any.
O Did you always see it from the depot? A. The first time, I was crossing the track looking West.
Q. That was at 9 o'clock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The rest of the time you saw it from the depot? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Stevens—Q. Did you ever run an engine? A. No. sir.

J. M. MASON, RECALLED.

Mr. Mason was recalled, and produced message received by him on the 15th, which reads as follows: "8—10 Peoria.
"Watch carefully for fires burning this dry weather, and caution all people to do the same in regard to their property."
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. I will get you to state the day on which you received that message? A. The message is dated 8—10, Peoria. It was received at 7:10 A. M.
Q. You received that message on the 15th? A. Yes, sir, I think that is the time.
Q. It is so marked on the dispatch? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About 10 in the morning? A. 8:10.
Q. What is the date marked on the dispatch? A. 8—10.
Q. That is August 10th? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You received that from whom? A. From Peoria.
Q. Headquarters? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From whom? A. Signed by Mr. Armstrong.
Q. To whom is it directed? A. All agents.
Q. Is there any other dispatch that relates to those fires? A. No, sir, I think not.
Q. Do you know the reason why that was dated on a different day from the one that it was sent? A. I don't know.
Q. What do you say is the reason? A. On the 11th, it was impossible to get messages through, and on the 12th and 13th. I don't know whether that was the reason or not.
Q. There was no such obstruction upon the 9th, or any day preceding this train? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember of ever getting a dispatch dated five or six days ahead or back? A. I don't know I am sure. I don't remember.
Q. You thought it was strange when you received that dispatch? A. I thought it was a mistake; that's why I put that 8—15 up there.
Q. It struck you as being queer that you should receive it on the 15th, and it was dated on the 10th? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Do you know about what speed that train was running? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know what speed it was running; after it left Chatsworth? A. I have no idea. I know the time it left Chatsworth, and I know about what time the head­light appeared, but I cannot form any estimate of the speed at all.
Q. How fast? A. It left 11:40 and I saw the head-light about midnight.
Q. Did you ever say to anybody that it was running 50 miles an hour? A. No, sir, I had no idea of how it was running. I don't remember of ever speaking about the speed of the train. I might have said it must have been running pretty fast to pile so many cars up.
Q. You never said that to anybody? A. Not that I remember of.
Q. You would remember it? A. I should think so. I had no way of judging it.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. About that dispatch—was there any explanation? Didn't you say you changed the date? A. That is the one to section foremen. It was dated the day before, and I didn't receive it until the next morning, and it read tomorrow, so I changed the date.
Q. It was not this one? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there any explanation passed between you and the office? A. I didn't ask for any.
Q. What day did you receive it? A. I think the 15th.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. That was the day before the coroner's investigation was resumed? A. I don't know.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What has it to do with this accident? A. I don't know, sir.
Q. You didn't receive that dispatch until the 15th? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there any such dispatch sent on the 10th? A. Not to my knowledge.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Were you at the office? A. I was in the office from about 9:30 until the train came.
Q. Could you see that light? A. I heard nobody speak of it except Mr. Walrich.
Q. What did he say? A. I just told them the train was half an hour late at Gridley, and he said, "The train is coming," but I don't know whether I looked then or not; but I said, "If you see a light, it is a head-light."
Q. Did you look in that direction? A. I think I did.
Q. Do you know whether you did? A. I am pretty positive that I looked.
Q. Who was it called your attention to the light? A. Mr. Walrich, but not to a fire.
Q. Didn't Mr. Jones say something about it? A. No, sir.
Q. About half past 9? A. I was there at that time; I got there about that time and went right into the office.
Q. You didn't stop there and say it does look like a head-light, but it is too soon for the excursion train? A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Mr. Walrich was the man who called your attention to the light? A. He didn't call my attention, but he mentioned a light.
 

W. C. JONES.

Mr. Jones, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. W. C. Jones.
Q. What is your business? A. Merchant.
Q. How long have you lived here? A. About 20 years.
Q. Were you here on the evening of the 10th of August? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you anything to do with the excursion train that was to go through here that evening? A. Nothing, only I happened to be over at the depot.
Q. Was your attention called to that train in any way that evening? A. I noticed—when I first went over there, I noticed a light.
Q. What time? A. About half past 9.
Q. Where, and what was its appearance? A. It looked to me as though it was a head-light in the distance, and was in a low place, and you could see the reflection.
Q. You saw a reflection that you supposed was from a head-light. Where did that appear to be? A. A little this side of Chatsworth.
Q. Can you see a head-light at Chatsworth from here? A. I think we can.
Q. Did you ever see one? A. Well I know this; that often in talking about it when we have seen head-lights, it has been remarked that it is in Chatsworth.
Q. Is there any point between here and Chatsworth that you cannot see the head-light before it gets here? A. I think there are three or four places where a train will come up and you can see it, and then it will go down.
Q. Can you see a reflection in a depression? A. If it is cloudy you could see it.
Q. What sort of a night was it? A. A little cloudy.
Q. Early in the evening? A. I think it was.
Q. As early as 9? You think you first saw it at 9? A. That's about the time I got there.
Q. Did you call anybody's attention to it? A. I don't know that I did in particular. There was a number there; some thought it was a head-light, others thought it was not.
Q. Was there anything that settled the question in your mind as to whether it was a head-light? A. Nothing except what the agent said about the location of the excursion train, and we were satisfied that it could not be the excursion train.
Q. Up to what time did you notice this light? A. I think I left about 11.
Q. From 9 to 11 were you there all the while? A. From about half past 9 to 11 I was there.
Q. How often during that interval did you observe this light? A. I think three or four times.
Q. Did it vary any? A. The variations were very little, except it got a little dimmer about 11.
Q. Did you see any flame? A. No, sir I could not see any.
Q. What did you see? A. Nothing except a reflection of light.
Q. Did it seem to be stationary or moving about? A. It was right straight across the track.
Q. What is the character of the track between here and Chatsworth? A. I understand that it is perfectly straight. It is a straight line.
Q. What depressions or elevations are there between here and where the wreck occurred? A. There is about three or four.
Q. Do you know how much of an elevation the highest one is? A. I think the highest one is at what is called the "Davis Crossing."
Q. Did you and the others determine in your own mind at about what point this fire was? A. I didn't think that it was a fire; I thought it was the switch light in Chatsworth, or else it was a head-light. After the agent stated it was a head­light, I paid no more attention to it.
Q. That was its appearance here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it occur to you at the time while you were discussing this matter that a bridge was on fire? A. No. sir, it did not.
Q. Why didn't it? A. In the first place there was no blaze; another thing, the fire remained so stationary all the time, that it would hardly indicate a bridge or anything of that kind.
Q. There was a slight variation? A. I suppose it grew a little dimmer towards 11.
Q. Give us your impression as to the quantity of light. A. There was a film of light—it appeared like a straw stack on fire over a hill, or something of that kind.
Q. And you gentlemen thought that it was either a head-light or a switch light? A. Some thought it was a switch light, and some thought it was a head-light.
Q. Where did you go after 11 o'clock? A. Home.
Q. Was your attention directed to this accident that night? A. I was called about 1 o'clock.
Q. Did you go to the wreck that night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you get there? A. About half past 1 o'clock, I walked.
Q. What distance is it from here? A. A little over two and one-half miles.
Q. On the track? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you observe any fire on the track between here and there? A. I noticed that some of the ties were on fire.
Q. Where were they? A. The first one was at what we call the "Berger Crossing." Perhaps one and one-half miles from town, from Piper City.
Q. Had there been any grass burned on the side of the track that day? A. I think there had.
Q. Did you see any more? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what point? A. I think within a half a mile of the "Davis Crossing."
Q. How far is that? A. A quarter of a mile from the wreck; but this was half a mile East of the "Davis Crossing."
Q. Did you see fire at any other point on the track? A. Two or three ends of ties was all that I noticed.
Q. Which side were they on? A. South side.
Q. How close was the closest to the wreck? A. I think about a half a mile.
Q. Did you go beyond the wreck where the culvert was? A. Just a short distance.
Q. Did you see any evidences of a fire North of the culvert? A. No, sir, I don't think I did.
Q. Had you been along there at any time just before the accident? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you West of the bridge? A. I was West only—perhaps 50 or 60 feet.
Q. When you got there—the wreck had happened before 1 o'clock? A. Nearly two hours before.
Q. What was the condition of the bridge at that time? A. It was almost out.
Q. Before you went there, while your attention was directed to the light, did you talk with the agent here about it? A. I don't think I did about the light.
Q. What did you talk to him about, if anything? A. I don't think I talked to him with respect to the light; we were talking about the excursion and different things.
Q. You say in your evidence before the coroner that you called his attention to it? A. Mr. Walrich called his attention to it, I didn't do it. His attention was called to it by Mr. Walrich, it was done in my presence, and he thought it was a head-light.
Q. Who else do you remember taking part in this conversation about this light? A. Mr. Reynolds.
Q. Is he here? A. He is in town.
Q. Who else? A. Mr. Madden, Mr. Clark, Mr. McKinney, and I think, Mr. Gibson. There were two or three ladies there; Miss Reynolds was there.
Q. This discussion was participated in by all those persons you have mentioned? A. This one would say it was this, the other would say it was that. They all expressed an opinion of some kind.
Q. They were all present in this conversation? A. They were around on the platform there.
Q. You were at the wreck a couple of hours after the accident happened. Did you hear anything said about the dead being robbed? A. I didn't see anything of that kind.
Q. How long did you stay there? A. From the time I got there until morning, a little after daylight.
Q. Did you see any pillaging going on there? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear anybody complain of it? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see anybody open satchels? A. No, sir.
Q. You stayed there until daylight? A. I came back with the last load of the wounded.
Q. When you left all the wounded had been sent away? A. I believe they had.
Q. What degree of attention was given to the wounded until the last were removed? A. I think they were cared for just as well as the people knew how to do it.
Q. When you left there all the wounded had been removed? A. All that had, been taken out of the wreck, but there were a few in the wreck that were dead.
Q. Did you make it your business to inquire about that? A. I was busy taking up the wounded; I was down there at the wreck and back to the cars several times, and I heard the remark a number of times, that all that were alive had been taken out of the wreck.
Q. At what hour was that? A. Between 5 and 6 o'clock in the morning.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Did you say anything to Mr. Mason about that fire? A. I don't think I did particularly. Mr. Walrich called his attention to the light.
Q. In your presence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say about it? A. He walked to the platform and looked at it, and said, "It cannot be the excursion, for it is too soon for it."
Q. After your attention was attracted to that light, it appeared to be right on the road—the road is perfectly straight? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you acquainted with the track from Chatsworth coming this way? A. Yes, sir, some.
Q. You thought it was a locomotive? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don't you think you could have seen that light coming this way? A. If it was as bright as when I left, I should think the engineer could have seen it.
Q. What time did you leave? A. About 11 o'clock.
Q. The accident was about half past 11 o'clock? A. I believe about 11:40.
Q. Did the appearance of the light remain about the same? A. I think it was getting dimmer when I left.
Q. Yet you could see it? A. I could see the light when I left.
Q. The track is perfectly straight from Chatsworth to the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was a time when you felt alarmed? A. No, sir, it didn't occur to me that there was a bridge on fire.
Q. What time did you go to the wreck? A. About half past 1 o'clock.
Q. Were there some ties on fire then? A. There were some ties burning on the track.
Q. Had it rained then? A. No, sir.
Q. What time did it rain? A. I think about 2 o'clock.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. The time when Mr. Walrich called the agent's attention to this light—can you tell about what time that was? A. I think it was a little before 10 o'clock.
Q. This light that you saw was of such a character that it attracted unusual notice—it was something unusual? A. It made them all think that the train was coming.
Q. It was because that it was unusual that it attracted general attention? A. It didn't look unusual to me, because I am used to seeing head-lights in that direction.
Q. The light as you saw it was something unusual—had you ever seen that kind of a light there before? A. I have seen the lights in Chatsworth look just about as it did.
Q. It created comment among the people? A. I think almost every one expressed an opinion of some kind.
Q. And Mr. Walrich called the agent's attention to it? A. He said the train is coming.
Q. The agent did look out to see if he could see the light, and he did see, it and made a remark about it? A. He walked to the edge of the platform and said he didn't think it was the train; from the time he had the last report he didn't think it could be.
Q. Do you know whether he made an investigation to ascertain just what it was? A. I don't think he did; I don't think he suspicioned anything.
Q. You say you noticed fires burning at different places? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About how many? A. I am not positive of how many, but I think it was three.
Q Do you know on whose section those fires were burning? A. The Chatsworth section.
Q. Do you know the number of it? A. Seven, I believe.
Q. All the fires were on this section? Who was the section foreman, do you know? A. I think it is Mr. Coughlin.
Q. What's the name of the section boss on this side? A. Mr. Reed.
By Mr. Stevens—Q. Was that light of sufficient importance, or considered so by your people, to lead you to attempt to fix the cause among you there at the time? A. No, sir, I thought that it didn't alarm anybody at all.
Q. It was a casual talk that arose from the fact that they were expecting the train. There was nothing that excited your suspicions in the character of the light? A. No, sir, it didn't occur to me that there was anything suspicious in it.
Q. You have stated that you should think an engineer on an engine could have seen that light. Have you ever had any experience on an engine? A. None whatever. I should think a head-light would prevent your seeing it.
Q. If it was a reflection, you should think it would interfere? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You cannot see much on a dark night with a light ahead of you? A. No, sir.

JOHN P. MADDEN.

Mr. Madden, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. John P. Madden.
Q. What is your age? A. 34.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Piper City, Ford County, Illinois.
Q. What is your business? A. Barber.
Q. How long have you lived here? A. 20 years.
Q. Were you here on the 10th of this month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was your attention attracted to the excursion train that was coming through here that night? A. I was expecting it.
Q. Were you going on that train? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you up when the accident happened? A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Were you at the depot that evening? A. I was in my shop until after 9 o'clock , then I went home, and then to the depot. I stepped up on to the platform and saw what I supposed was the train, the head-light, or the reflection; I went and sat down on the trucks, and thought nothing about it. I saw a reflection, what I supposed was the reflection of the head-light.
Q. You are familiar with the road? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever see a light there before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was what led you to suppose it was a head-light? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What then? A. I talked there a while, and perhaps in 20 or 25 minutes the agent came out and said the train was 40 minutes late.
Q. What time was that? A. About 10 o'clock.
Q. The agent said the train was 40 minutes late? A. It was after that when he said it was 40 minutes late; it was then 10:35, we took out our watches and looked. The train I suppose had just left Western.
Q. Did you see any light at that time? A. Yes, sir, I turned to Mr. Jones, and said I am going home, and stepped to the edge of the platform and saw the same light.
Q. Had it changed in its appearance? A. I didn't notice that it had.
Q. Did its character change at any time? A. I didn't notice it particularly; I thought it was the reflection from a head-light.
Q. And thought nothing of it? A. No, sir.
Q. At the last did you change your opinion? A. I thought nothing more of it.
Q. Did you go home then? A. I went home in five or ten minutes.
Q. Did you observe it any further? A. I didn't look any more.
Q. Did you go to bed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was your attention again called to the light that evening? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you call the agent's attention to the light? A. I did not.
Q. Where you were at the time the agent spoke to you, could you see the light then? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see the agent at the time he made the announcement that the train was late? Could he see the light? A. No, sir.
Q. Was anybody else speaking of the light? A. I heard no one.
Q. The light in character didn't change during the time you were there? A. Not that I know of.
Q. You could only see it when you went to the edge of the platform? A. The tank shuts off the view.
Q. Was the agent's attention called to it while you were there? A. Not that I know of.
Q. What time was the alarm given? A. About twenty minutes after 12. It was just twenty minutes after 12.
Q. Did you go to the depot after the alarm? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you give attention to the fact that there was a light up the road? A. I didn't give it any attention.
Q. What did you do? A. I went to the hand car house.
Q. Did you go on the hand car? A. We put a push car on ahead of the hand car, and tried to use that, but we couldn't do it.
Q. What time did you arrive at the wreck? A. I judge about 1 o'clock.
Q. You went there pretty quick? A. I ran nearly all the way.
Q. On the way to the wreck did you observe any fire on the road side? A. I did.
Q. Where was it? A. I cannot locate it exactly; it was between the "Williams" and the "Davis Crossings." I think perhaps about midway between the two crossings.
Q. That would bring it how near to the wreck? A. Three quarters of a mile.
Q. What was it burning, ties? A. A few pieces of ties in the ditch, and the ends of the ties on the track. The grass had been burned that afternoon, but the ties were still burning.
Q. That would be how near the wreck? A.  Three-quarters of a mile.                                                                                                       Q. Do you think it was any nearer? A. It might have been.
Q. Was it a quarter of a mile? A. I think there was none that close.
Q. What was the direction of the wind? A. Southwest.
Q. Did it change after you got there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From what direction did it blow then? A. North.
Q. Did you go beyond the culvert? A. No, sir, I did not. I went across the ditch North of the railroad ground.
Q. Did you observe any fire West of the ditch? A. I did not. I didn't go West of the ditch.
Q. You didn't go on the West side at all? A. No, sir.
Q. How much of the bridge was burned when you got there? A. I didn't notice it particularly, from the fart that they wanted water, and I ran to get buckets to put the fire out.
Q. Was there a car standing over the bridge? A. There was a sleeper.
Q. At what hour did the wind change? A. I think it was in the neighborhood of 2 o'clock.
Q. From South to North? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was any part of the cars burned? A. I saw nothing of the kind.
Q. Did you observe any pillaging going on there? A. Nothing of the kind.
Q. What attention was being given to the wounded? A. All that could be.
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Until about 4 o'clock.
Q. What did you do while you were there with respect to the wounded? A. I was carrying water to the bridge, and then to the wounded.
Q. How many persons came in there from outside? A. A great main from here.
Q. You were busy earning water? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you leave at 4 o'clock? A. I was tired out; I had run down there and had been running around the wreck, and I was all tired out.
Q. Had any of the wounded been brought away when you left? A. I came with the first load, I didn't ride, but I came on foot; the cars were full, and I walked.
Q. Full of whom? A. The wounded.
Q. You walked because the room was occupied? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were any sent to other places? A. I suppose after I left.
Q. All the attention was given to the wounded that could be given? A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you go back any more? A. Not until afternoon.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Do you know on whose section those fires were? A. Chatsworth section, number 7.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Your impression was that the light you saw was the reflection of the head-light in the depression? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Stevens—Q. Was there anything in the character of that light to lead you to fix the cause of it? A. I gave it no thought.
Q. Did you think the bridge was on fire? A. I didn't. I heard no talk about it, no one seemed to be alarmed.

F. O. WALRICH

Mr. Walrich, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified us follows:

Q. What is your name? A. F. O. Walrich.
Q. What is your age? A. 42.
Q. What is your business? A. Merchant.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Piper City.
Q. How long have you lived here? A. About 17 years.
Q. Are you familiar with the railroad track between here and Chatsworth? A. Some parts of it.
Q. Did you ever walk across there? A. Several times.
Q. This season before the accident? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you here in Piper City on the 10th of this month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was your attention directed to an accident that happened that evening? A. It was during the night.
Q. Were you to be a passenger on that train? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you at the depot that evening? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time? A. I started from the store about half past 9 o'clock. My wife and family were with me; we went over there with the expectation of seeing my nephew off.
Q. Was your attention attracted to any light? A My attention was first attracted—I remarked to my nephew that we are just in time for the train.
Q. That was your first knowledge of the light? A. Yes, sir. We stepped up on the platform and I could notice the reflection.
Q. At what point were you when you observed the light? A. On the edge of the platform.
Q. Could you see it at any other point? A. I think not. I thought the train was in sight, and perhaps two or three minutes after, I called the attention of the agent to it.
Q. What was the character of the light? A. It seemed to be the reflection of the head-light.
Q. You have seen head-lights a good many times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you thought it was the head-light? A. Yes. sir.
Q. And you called the attention of the agent to it? A. Yes, sir. He answered my question in this manner: ''It cannot possibly be." I think the agent stepped into the depot to ascertain where the train was, and he informed us that it had just left Gridley.
Q. What time was that? A. About half past 9 o'clock.
Q. Did he see the light himself? A. I think he did.
Q. What did he say? A. That it could not possibly be the train.
Q. Did you call his attention to it that evening again? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you give any more attention to it? A. I think I looked up the track once or twice and saw a reflection something similar to the first, and came to the conclusion it was a switch-light at Chatsworth.
Q. What was the character of the light with respect to brightness; had it changed? A. No, sir, it appeared about the same.
Q. What time did you last observe it? A. It must have been 15 minutes of 10 o'clock.
Q. What did you do then? A. My family and myself went home and retired.
Q. Did you observe it after you left the platform? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear of the accident that night? A. I was called up by Mr. Reynolds at perhaps 1 o'clock.
Q. Did you go to the wreck? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you go there? A. I walked up.
Q. Did you observe any fire on the track? A. Yes, sir, at two or three points.
Q. How close to the wreck? A. The first was a fire in the ditch—old ties, and was near the "Berger Crossing."
Q. Were any of the ties on fire that the rails were on? A. I cannot say. They were loose ties.
Q. Did you see any of the ties upon which the rails were fastened on fire? A. No, sir.
Q. How near to the wreck was the closest fire? A. Nearly half a mile.
Q. Did you go beyond the burning bridge when you got there? A. Only a few yards.
Q. Were you on the South side? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any fire about the track West of the bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. What time did you arrive at the wreck? A. Perhaps half past 1 o'clock.
Q. What did you do when you got there? A. When we started we took an ax and a lantern, and on the way I met Mr. McKinney, who said they needed water and pails, and I sent my son to Mr. Andrew's house for some pails.
Q. How near to the wreck was that? A. About a mile and a quarter.
Q. Did Mr. Andrews go with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what point—did you see anything of this fire before you got to it? A. No, sir, we could not see anything of it.
Q. When you went to Andrews' house, that was South of the road, could you see the fire from Andrews' house? A. I didn't go; I sent my son.
Q. Who went with him? A. A gentleman in the warehouse.
Q. Do you think the fire could be noticed from Mr. Andrews' house? A. I think there is a grove in the way.
Q. You helped carry water? A. We filled our pails at the tank; the one that was broken loose from the engine.
Q. What did you do with it? A. Carried it to the wounded.
Q. Did you go to the bridge? A. Only in carrying the wounded to the cars for Chatsworth.
Q. What time did you go to the bridge? A. Just about the time the rain commenced to fall. I had left my watch.
Q. Were you handing water around to the wounded? A. I carried it to them. The first thing I did was to cut the fence wires in order to make a better passage.
Q. They were on which side? A. On the North side.
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Until about 10 o'clock.
Q. The next day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. During the time you were there did you observe what attention was given to the wounded? A. I think they received all that could be given under the circumstances.
Q. Were there many people there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The passengers from the coaches, were they helping? A. I could not tell. It seemed as though everybody was occupied in making the wounded comfortable.
Q. Do you know what was done with the wounded? A. They were sent away.
Q. Had the dead all been extricated when you left? A. All but one exception. That was a lady wedged in between the cars.
Q. Had the wrecking train arrived there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they apply their machinery? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know how many dead were taken out? A. I don't know, sir: if my memory serves me right, there were thirteen on the North side when I left.
Q. Up to that time they were all taken out but one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you look about to see if the dead were removed? A. Yes, sir, I helped some myself.
Q. What was done with the wounded? A. They were put on mattresses.
Q. Then what? A. As soon as the train came back we sent them to Chatsworth and Piper City.
Q. Was anybody burned in that wreck? A. I could not say.
Q. Any of the cars burned? A. Not up to 10 o'clock.
Q. It was probably 2 o'clock when you observed the bridge? A. I should judge it was that.
Q. Was the fire out at that time? A. They had it under control.
Q. When you came to the railroad was it cloudy? A. Yes, sir, I think it was.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. What time did you say you went to the train that night? A. About half past 9 o'clock.
Q. What time was the train due here? A. Half past 9.
Q. Were you going on the train? A. No, sir.
Q. Just came to see it pass? A. To see my nephew off.
Q. You say that when you came up your attention was attracted by the light, but you heard nobody say anything about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does it seem to you that an engineer could run from here to that bridge without seeing the light? A. He ought to be able to see the reflection.
Q. Because it appeared to be right on the track? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The road is straight? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Coming from Chatsworth this way, don't you think they could have seen it? A. There is a difference in the track—difference in the elevations.
Q. Do you know how that ground is? A. No, sir.
Q. You could see the reflection from the light? A. Yes, sir, and it had the appearance of a head-light down in a ravine.
Q. Going from this way, is the bridge higher or lower? A. The bridge is the lowest I should judge.
Q. There are some cuts? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Suppose this to be the lowest. Couldn't you still have seen the reflection from here on a dark night? A. I should think so.
By Mr. Niehaus—Q. Do you know on whose section those fires were? A. The next one West of this.
Q. Do you know what section that is? A. No, sir.
Q. Is that the Chatsworth section? A. It is called the Chatsworth section.
Q. How many fires did you notice? A. Two that I remember of.
Q. How near the track? A. Right on the edge.
Q. How far from the ties? A. Perhaps three feet from the ties, but I am not positive of that. I gave them no attention at the time.
Q. Your judgment would be that they were about three feet? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Stevens—Q. Did you ever have any experience with a head-light? A. No, sir.
Q. You have no personal knowledge of what an engineer could see? A. No, sir.