Chatsworth Train Accident
August 10, 1887

TESTIMONY.

FRIDAY.

Chatsworth, Illinois, August 12, 1887.

D. G. SUTHERLAND.

Mr. Sutherland being duly sworn was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. D. G. Sutherland.
Q. What is your business? A. Locomotive engineer.
Q. On what road? A. On the Toledo, Peoria & Western.
Q. Do you know of any accident that happened on that road on the 10th of August? A. I do.
Q. Do you know the train to which that accident happened? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you any connection with it? A. Yes, sir, I was running engine 21, in the lead of engine 13.
Q. If you please, will you state what you know about that accident, beginning with when and where it happened, and state in your own way what you know about it? A. In the first place we were behind our schedule time.
Q. Where was the train going from? A. The train was running from Peoria, and was called the "Niagara Falls Excursion" and was running over our road. We started out of Peoria at 7:45, and were 30 minutes late.
Q. Did you have two engines when you started? A. We had two after we got over the truss part of the Illinois river bridge.
Q. Your engine was in the lead? A. Yes, sir, we coupled on at the trestle, and from there to Weston we nearly made schedule time, that's counting off the lost time in starting.
Q. How many miles to the hour? A. The schedule calls for about 30 miles an hour, and at Weston---
Q. How far from Peoria is Weston? A. It's about 55 miles.
Q. What happened at Weston? A. We stopped there to take on passengers —we were flagged there. There is quite a heavy grade going out of there; it is a difficult matter to stop there, and in starting from there we broke the threads on the draw bar, and it caused some delay. We were also delayed at Forrest. We left Forrest, I think, about 11:30 or 11:35.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Behind time how much? A. We were due there at 9:40. I think those are about the figures.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. What time did you leave there? A. I think it was about 11:30 or 11:40.
Q. What distance is that from Peoria? A. It is called 65 miles.
Q. How much behind time were you there? A. We were due there at 9:40,
From there we went to Chatsworth, took up passengers, and after some delay proceeded until we got about half way between Chatsworth and Piper City—and before we came to this bridge——
Q. Is it down grade there? A. Yes sir, it is a little down grade, I don't know just how much (I saw flames that seemed to be off in the field.)
Q. How much of a grade is that? A. I cannot tell by the feeling of the train, I could tell more about it on a long grade. The short grades I cannot tell.
Q. Is that point lower than this? (Chatsworth) A. I think it is—I know it is. After I got down that grade a ways I saw a flame towards the side of the track, I recollect on the right side, and almost instantly I caught a view of the bridge and I saw there was something wrong; going down that grade the speed was of course accelerated, and it was simply too late to do anything, and my fireman called to me to jump.
Q. What distance were you from the bridge? A. I judge it was between 250 and 300 feet.
Q. At what point did your fireman jump? A. Just at the time he noticed it, and he noticed it about as quick as I did.
Q. You didn't jump? A. I jumped off the seat back on to the foot board of my engine, and prepared myself to jump, but just in an instant I concluded that I would not jump—I concluded in an instant that I would stay on my engine—I thought for an instant that I would jump, but then made up my mind not to jump.
Q. What did you think? A. I just made up my mind not to attempt it, and in an instant almost I felt the bridge give under me.
Q. Did you take hold of the lever? A. I shut my engine off and held on to the lever with my right hand; and held there and looked right ahead; I was braced there and standing on the foot board.
Q. Did you let on any more steam? A. I did when I got to the bridge.
Q. What do you mean by that? A. Just as soon as I felt the sinking I opened the throttle.
Q. You went over? A. I was pushed over. I seemed to sink right down. It put the lights out, the curtain was broken loose, and the engine was jerked from the tender, breaking the coupling bar in two.
Q. Did your tender go over? A. The rear wheels were knocked out from under. The front wheels were all right. I felt it separate when I got over. She acted as though she was on the ties—she had no weight behind her and I was trying to get out of the way. I run across the crossing about 100 yards.
Q. Were you actually off the track? A. No sir, I don't know whether I was off on the bridge or not; there would be a possibility of my being off at the bridge.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. You said 100 yards, do you mean the bridge or the crossing? A. The crossing.
Q. That's how far from the bridge? A. I stopped with my engine over a quarter of a mile from the bridge.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. You went that far? A. Yes sir; I supposed my side rods were broken. I recovered my senses and applied the steam brake and I stopped her there, and for fear of an explosion I dropped the drop grate to let the fire out. My idea was to save the water.
Q. What do you mean by side rods? A. They are the side rods that connect the drivers.
Q. Can you tell us about the fire in the fire box? A. You drop the grate by means of a lever. On my engine there is a lever on the left side which is connected with the drop grate in the forward part of the fire box. By means of this lever the fire falls down on the ground between the trucks. In order to prevent my engine from exploding, I dropped this grate. I run back as soon as I could and found my tank midway between the crossing and the wreck; I jumped up on the tank to shut off the water that was running out, and started back for the wreck with an ax and a bucket of water. My idea was to quench any fire that might be burning.
Q. Did this fire fall down on the track? A. The fire has to go down between the trucks.
Q. Would anything cause that to happen on an engine without the fireman or engineer doing something to it? A. Such instances do happen but they are very rare and are always discovered at once when the fireman goes to put in more coal, or the engineer will see the reflection.
Q. Tell us what you saw at the wreck? A. I found my tender, the rear wheels knocked out from under, and the forward ones standing on the track. I had broken the hose and the water was running out of the tank; in order to save that water for the fire I shut it off. I then got my ax and a bucket full of water and started back for the wreck. I met my fireman, Mr. Rogers, and I told him the position of my engine and for him to go to her and knock the balance of the fire out, in order to prevent an explosion. There was not very much water in the boiler; my recollection is there was about two inches in the gauge.
Q. What did he do then? (Mr. Rogers.) A. He went on to the engine; but he didn't knock the fire out as I told him. I learned since that these two firemen took the engine and run out to Piper City.
Q. What were you doing in the meantime? A. I discovered men working around the engine—I found a woman fastened--
Q. How far from the bridge? A. It was about the length of the entire wreck.
Q. You said you saw some fire? A. No, the fire didn't appear then, the fire in the fire box was smoldering. After I tried to get Mrs. Parker out of the wreck—I am speaking of the second engine—I then saw fire connecting to the debris around there and I kept carrying water until we smothered the fire out of the second engine. I then set parties to carrying water to the bridge.
Q. From where? A. From my tank.
Q. How far was it from the engine? A. It seemed to me about the distance of a square, possibly 300 feet.
Q. Who were these people that you had helping you, were they passengers? A. I saw Mr. Armstrong around there at that time, and I think I saw Mr. Parker, the dispatcher, and I recognized the pumper from Piper City.
Q. How did he happen to be there, was he a passenger? A. He came there before this fire began to show much signs—while the engine had gone to Piper City.
Q. What had you done in that interval? A. I was helping to get this lady out, and starting people for buckets. I had to run back to my engine to get a lamp.
Q. Did you get hurt in the wreck? A. Not at the time, but I felt pretty sore the next day and do now. I presume I was pretty much excited.
Q. Can you state anything more you saw about the wreck? A. I thought there would be danger of fire from this fire box, and I carried water a great while, and tried to direct as many as I could to hurry up, keeping some going to the bridge, and doing the best I could every way.
Q. Was your attention directed to the condition of the bridge after you got off your engine? A. I had gone around to the bridge after some little time; the conductor had come around where this lady was; I was helping this lady.
Q. Was she in the first passenger car? A. I heard she was in Mr. Armstrong's car.
Q. Your attention was directed to the fire in the fire box of the second engine. Did you pay any attention to the fire at the bridge? A. I did afterwards, I went around with water several times.
Q. What was its condition when you first observed it after crossing it? A. After I crossed it I noticed it broke into a flame; when I first saw it, it seemed to be embers; after I got back there was a great deal more reflection; it seemed to burst into flames after I passed over.
Q. How wide was the fire when you got back? A. The stringers seemed to be sunk down, and the caps, piling and everything was greatly damaged.
Q. Describe what timbers were on fire? A. I can not tell you.
Q. Were the ties burned? A. It seemed to me that they were partially; I can not swear to the extent.
Q. Give us your idea of the quantity of fire there was when you first gave it your attention, after crossing it? A. You couldn't call it a raging fire. After I went back there I noticed a car, I think it was a sleeper that had bridged that chasm, but I don't think the fire connected to the body of any of the cars at all.
Q. You say there was no flame about it before you crossed it? A. I saw red embers from where I was, and some reflection. I think in going over it the jarring would cause it to burst into flames.
Q. Where were the cars when you got back there—how far was the second engine from the bridge? A. This car that spanned that chasm was one of the cars that I considered was not much damaged. The badly wrecked cars were between the bridge and the engine. I think the cars made lots of splinters around the engine. I saw the body of the tank laying down beside the engine, and the engine was laying on her right side on the right side of the track.
Q. One of the cars you say spanned the chasm? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether the rails were down then or not? A. They were warped.
Q. They were entirely on the ground? A. They were bent down. I suppose what was left of the stringers and rails and caps would give one train some slight support.
Q. Do you have any impression as to the speed you were making when you crossed the bridge? A. Between 30 and 35 miles an hour. It is impossible to tell on a mile until you have run it what speed you are making.
Q. Do you know anything about how it happened other than you have stated? A. No, sir.
Q. As you approached how much appearance of fire was there? A. When I was within about 200 feet of the bridge I saw the bridge, and saw that there was danger there. It looked to be embers, and then as I got nearer I saw appearances of more live fire below the piling.
Q. Did you notice whether it was blazing? A. It was not in the body of the bridge at that time. It showed from the under surface of the ties more indications of fire.
Q. Was there no blaze perceptible? A. There was a blaze from the side below.
By Commissioner Marsh—A. Was it from the abutment? A. I think it was. When I went in there I made up my mind that I was going to die. I never expected to get out alive.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You got that impression from the fire you saw on the bridge? A. I cannot tell the exact condition at all; I thought I had to die in there; it struck me that I was going to die.
Q. There was no question about the bridge being on fire? A. No, sir.
Q. That was the reason you thought about jumping? A. It was fixed in my mind that I was going to die right in there, and I thought at first that I would jump, but then it struck me I will not do it.
Q. You left Peoria at what time? A. 30 minutes behind time. We left at 7:45.
Q. You spoke about running 50 miles and then you were detained? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much were you behind time when you made that stop, how much time had you made up, if any? A. I don't think we made up any time.
Q. At Chatsworth how were you? A. I could see that we were not gaining on the schedule time; we had a schedule of running time for that train.
Q. Were you as near on time at Chatsworth as you were at Peoria? A. No, sir, we were later; we were delayed at Forrest and at Weston, and I could see that we could not make up our time.
Q. When you left there were you aiming to make up time—what were your orders if any? A. The orders are fixed in regard to that. When we are behind time we are supposed to run on schedule time, but sometimes we make up time when we can do it with safety. If our schedule calls for 15 miles an hour, we are allowed to make 20 when it is safe to do it.
Q. You had no orders to make up any lost time? A. No, sir, there were no orders to that effect.
Q. You think you were running about 30 or 35 miles an hour? A. Yes, sir, running about that.
Q. Your aim is to run as near schedule time as possible? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rinaker—When you first saw the fire did you attempt to stop the engine? A. No, sir.
Q. Had you reversed the engine at that time", could you have stopped there and not crossed the bridge? A. The train wouldn't have felt the effect of it at all within that space.
Q. What kind of brakes did you have? A. My brake is a steam brake acting on the drivers, and running at any rate of speed, you run some distance before there is any perceptible effect of any kind on the brake.
Q. In what distance will the train respond to the brake? A. I could not have stopped that train; I would have run to where my engine stopped; I could not have stopped in a mile.
Q. How long have you been an engineer? A. Seven or eight years.
Q. How old are you? A. Thirty-two years.
Q. Where do you live? A. In Peoria.
Q. Where have you acted as engineer—always in this State? A. I was employed first on the "Q." road; I was made an engineer there, and next on the Des Moines, Osceola and Southern road; I was made master mechanic the first year, and the last year I had charge there; I was not satisfied, and was sent over to Peoria by Mr. Selby to help out, and have remained there ever since.
By Commissioner Rogers—How many cars were there on that train that were carrying passengers? A. I cannot say, but I heard there were 15.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Mr. Sutherland, I understood you to say that when you first discovered something wrong about the bridge you were about the length of a square from the bridge? A. There was a down grade, and I had got started down that grade, and I judge it was in the neighborhood of 250 or 300 feet. That was my statement. I discovered this flame, and it appeared to be at the side; I didn't think it was the bridge until about an instant after, when I got another view.
Q. How far were you from the bridge, as near as you can recollect, when you first discovered the flame? A. I should judge about 200 or 300 feet. I didn't think it was the bridge until I got closer.
Q. You saw the flame first, and subsequently saw that it was the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you notice it was the bridge before the fireman jumped off? A. Yes sir.
Q. Before he jumped off? A. I think that's the case, he hollered for "God sake jump off', Dave."
Q. When you first saw the flame you were elevated on your engine and was higher than the bridge. Could you when you first saw the flame see the bridge? A. No sir, I could not see the bridge. I supposed it was something burning at the side of the road.
Q. And beside the bridge too? A. I didn't know.
Q. Further along you discovered something was the matter with the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you discover was the matter with the bridge? A. It struck me that the bridge was on fire.
Q. Could you see the stringers? A. I cannot say.
Q. When did you first see the stringers of the bridge? A. I was watching the rails and I saw what appeared to be portions of the ties on fire, and when I passed over I saw they were on fire.
Q. How far does your headlight throw the light? A. I suppose it is safe to say about the length between telegraph poles—about 200 feet.
Q. You think then that your light throws so you can see about 200 feet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the time you saw the bridge? A. Yes, sir, it must have been.
Q. When the headlight struck the bridge, then you think you discovered something was the matter with the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you cannot say what it was? A. Not definitely.
Q. Did you think the bridge was on fire? A.- I thought the bridge was burning, or had been. I was scared of course.
Q. On these passenger cars whose duty is it to look to the connecting of the air brakes? A. At the end of every division men examine them, and after they are coupled on the engineer tests them.
Q. Your engine being in advance had no air brakes? A. It is not a passenger engine.
Q. Did the second engine have the air brake connected with the cars? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. There was no whistle to put on brakes? A, No, sir.
Q. Did you have brakemen on the cars? A. They carried two brakemen on the train.
Q. When you left your engine you went back to your tender and there you stopped the water from flowing out, and got your ax and bucket and started on to this second engine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the first thing you did when you got back to the second engine? A. My expectation was to find the wreck burning from the second engine, but she didn't show any signs of fire. I then started my fireman back, and then I went to the assistance of this lady.
Q. She was in the wreck near the second engine? A. She was lying near the second engine..
Q. You helped her out? A. I worked around her and finally got her out, and then I noticed the fire and left her.
Q. After working on the fire box and putting the fire out you went to the bridge. How long from the time you got your first bucket of water—how long was it from that time until you went to the bridge? A. I cannot tell you definitely.
Q. Do you think it was half an hour? A. It might have been.
Q. Did you get back to the bridge before this engine got back from Piper City? A. Yes, sir, the engine never came back.
y. The man came back on the hand car? A. I don't know whether he did or not.
Q. Had you been back to the bridge before you saw him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell how long it was? A. No, sir.
Q. How long did you stay around the wreck? A. Until morning.
Q. What time? A. About daylight.
Q. Was the fire entirely out when you left? A. It was. I cannot say for sure, but I think it must have been though.
Q. Which way was the wind blowing? A. There was a very high wind came up; it was blowing from the South.
Q. Does the track run East and West? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which way was the Maine first shooting? A. I saw it at the right side of the track. I cannot tell you exactly.
Q. The time between seeing the flame and arriving at the bridge was very short? A. It was not very long. ...
Q. If there is any other matter that you wish to state, that will throw any light upon the subject under investigation, you may state it. A. I know that the fire at the bridge didn't connect with the cars when they went over the bridge.
Q. Do you know the condition of the bridge before you run over it? A. It was a one span bridge. I should judge it was about 17 feet long.
Q. Do you know anything about the condition of the timbers? A. They looked all right and felt all right. We tell by the feeling a good deal. Of course as far as looking is concerned, we cannot tell by that; we can tell about it by the feeling.
Q. You have been running over it for a good while? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You supposed it was a good bridge? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. There can be no doubt about the bridge being on fire when you crossed it, you say that positively? A. I am positive there was a fire there, and when we crossed it, it helped it to burn by fanning it.

JOHN ROGERS.

Mr. Rogers being duly sworn was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. John Rogers.
Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Rogers? A. In Peoria.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. About three years.
Q. What is your business? A. Locomotive fireman.
Q. Where? A. On the T. P. & W. Ry.
Q. On an engine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been in that business? About eight years; not firing altogether, but I have been in the railroad business about eight years.
Q. Where? A. T. P. & W., P. D. & E., Kansas and Pacific, and the Chicago and Rock Island.
Q. What did you do all that time; you said you had not been firing all that time what other business did you do? A. I run a locomotive a while on some roads.
Q. You have had eight years experience? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been fireman on this road about three years? A. I should judge about three years.
Q. Do you know of this accident happening here the other evening?] A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any accident happening on the T., P. & W. railroad on the night of the 10th of this month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you aboard of the train? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Acting as fireman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which engine were you on? A. The head engine.
Q. With Mr. Sutherland, on his engine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know of the accident there, do you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What first attracted your attention? A. I saw a little fire at the side of the track.
Q. Which side? A. The right hand side.
Q. What sort of a fire was it? A. It was a small blaze.
Q. How far was it from you when you first saw it? A. I should judge it was 200 or 300 yards.
Q. Were you running rapidly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a pretty good judge of speed? A. I could judge if I was noticing.
Q, Were you noticing it that evening? A. No, sir, not that I could tell exactly.
Q. How close to the rail was that fire? A. I had just supposed it was a little off from the track.
Q. Was it near the track, the track proper, or was it far off of the track? A. It was off the track.
Q. How far? A. I should judge it was about fifteen feet.
Q. From the rail, and to the right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. South side? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any fire nearer the track than that? A. I didn't see it until I came up and jumped off.
Q. How long after you first saw that fire until you jumped oft? A. It was a very little while.
Q. How near were you to the fire when you jumped off? A. I lit close to the ditch.
Q. What ditch do you mean? A. Where the bridge was.
Q. Do you mean to say that you saw fire fifteen feet from the track and that made you jump off? A. No, sir.
Q. What made you jump off—how near the track did it appear to be when you jumped off? A. The first appearance of the bridge I jumped off; just as I saw it I jumped off.
Q. What was the appearance of the fire? A. It looked something like coals and I saw little sparks.
Q. Where were the sparks with respect to the bridge? A. Right in the center
Q. When you saw them you knew that something was wrong? A. Yes, sir, knew something was wrong.
Q. Did you say anything to anybody? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you say? A. I turned around to the engineer and said jump off.
Q. What did you do then? A. I jumped off.
Q. How near were you to the ditch when you got off? A. I could not have been very far; I lit pretty close to the ditch.
Q. The engineer did not jump off, did he? A. Not that I saw.
Q. Did you get hurt when you jumped off? A. No, sir.
Q. Where was the train when you got to your feet? A. I saw them all piled up, and I run back for a place to get over on the other side.
Q. Some cars were on the track? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you first got up did you look for a fire then? A. I saw the cars right there a little ways in front of me.
Q. Did you see fire then? A. No, sir.
Q. Before you run back to cross the track? A. I thought about the boys, and run around to see them.
Q. Which side did you jump off? A. The left side.
Q. What did you see when you got on the other side? A. The first thing I saw was a lady fastened by her feet; the next was Mr. Applegreen, fireman of the other engine.
Q. Was he nearer the bridge than you were? A. I don't think he was.
Q. Which side of the creek or ditch was he on? A. He was on the East side.
Q. Now, as you passed the bridge did you see any fire? A. I didn't look at the bridge at all. I didn't have any idea where the bridge was.
Q. You were looking for the boys that were connected with the engines, and that is the reason you didn't notice the bridge? A. Yes, sir, I suppose that is the reason.
Q. You cannot tell us whether it was blazing or not? A. No, sir.
Q. Go ahead and tell us about what you saw. A. That's about all that I know about it.
Q. Did you see anything of Mr. Sutherland? A. He came up to me.
Q. Did you have any conversation with him? A. He told me to go back and see to the engine.
Q. Did you do that? A. I said I cannot do anything to the engine; I supposed it was down there.
Q. You supposed it was wrecked? A. He said the engine was up there, and the tank in another place; he said take the engine and go over to Piper City if there is water enough.
Q. Did you do that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do there? A. Mr. Applegreen went in and told the operator, and I whistled and gave the alarm.
Q. Did you bring the engine back? A. No, sir.
Q. Why? A. There was not enough water.
Q. Did you walk back? A. No, sir, I rode back on engine 24.
Q. Was it at Piper City? A. It came there.
Q. Did the people come down to the wreck? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came with them? A. No, sir, I came with the engineer and fireman; I went to tell them where the tank was.
Q. Did you go about the wreck when you got back? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us what you saw there. A. I saw there were lots of people hurt.
Q. How many cars were in that train? A. They told me there were 17, but I don't know.
Q. How many passenger cars were there, or did you notice? A. No, sir.
Q. The train had two locomotives? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was your locomotive connected with the train—after starting or before? A. Just after they got across the bridge at Peoria.
Q. How far is that from where it started? A. 200 or 300 rods.
Q. When you saw this fire first was there any whistle blown? A. Not that I heard of.
Q. If there had been at 300 yards would it have done any good? A. I say it was near 200 or 300 yards, it may not have been that much.
Q. When you first saw it, it didn't alarm you? A. No, sir; I have seen little fires before.
Q. You became alarmed at about 200 feet from the bridge? A. I didn't say 200 feet.
Q. How close to the bridge? A. I cannot tell you exactly.
Q. Much closer than when you first saw the fire? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you think was the matter with the bridge? A. I supposed it was burned out. I didn't see any appearances of a blaze at all. I thought it was clear gone.
Q. That was your impression when you jumped off? A. Yes, sir.
Q,. What were the indications that led you to that conclusion—could you see the timbers of the bridge? A. I cannot say that I could see the timbers of the bridge.
Q. Did you see the upright posts of the bridge? A. No, sir; I saw something about the bridge to know that it was a bridge.
Q. Did you still set the blaze oil to the right of the bridge? A. I suppose I did.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Did you know there was a bridge there? A. I knew there were bridges along there.
Q. Did it occur to you that there was a bridge there? A. I could look right over at it, and I could see the light of the coals, and see the light on the rails.
Q. Did you see the rails? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see the stringers? A. I cannot say.
Q. The cross ties? A. I cannot tell you; I didn't have time enough to look.
Q. You were satisfied that the bridge was burned out, and that was what made you jump? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You don't think you would have jumped off unless the bridge had been on fire? A. I don't think I would have jumped, unless I thought there was danger.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. It is pretty dangerous to jump, isn't it? A. Yes sir.
Q. At the time you jumped off you thought the bridge was burned out? A. Yes sir.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Can you say at what speed you were running—do you think you were running 30 or 35 miles an hour? A. I wouldn't be willing to say.
Q. If you had discovered this fire within a quarter of a mile of the bridge, with two engines, would you have been able to stop the train? A. I suppose I was no looking for anything of that kind. I cannot tell you the rate we were running, and I cannot tell you.
Q. It would have been harder to stop than a lighter one? A. That train seemed to be.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Did you ever run a passenger train? A. No, sir.

AXEL APPLEGREEN.

Mr. Applegreen, being first duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. Axel Applegreen.
Q. How old are you? A. A little over 25.
Q. What is your business? A. Locomotive fireman.
Q. How long have you been a locomotive fireman? A. Running an engine and firing about seven years.
Q. Where? A. On the T., P. & W.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Peoria.
Q. How long have you resided in Peoria? A. About nineteen years.
Q. What were you doing on the evening of the 10th of this month? A. I pre­ared to go out with engine 13 on the Niagara Falls Excursion.
Q. Did you go out that evening? A. Yes, sir.
y. How many cars were in the train? A. I think we left with thirteen passenger cars, and one baggage car.
Q. How many engines were attached to the train? A. We left Peoria and after we got across the bridge another was coupled on to us.
Q. Who was in charge of the other engine? A. Mr. Sutherland.
Q. McClintock was in charge of your engine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you leave Peoria? About 7:45.
Q. Was that on time? A. We were due to leave at 7:15.
Q. Can you tell us how rapidly you run, and what stops you made after you started? A. We left Peoria after trying the brakes and found them all right.
Q. At what point did you say you tried the brakes? A. At Peoria.
Q.. What kind of air brakes? A. Westinghouse on the engine. The engine in front had no connection with us.
Q. Did the brakes connect with all the cars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They are all controlled by the engineer? . A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were there any brakemen on the train? A. I think there were three or four. We call the porters brakemen when they are called for brakes.
Q How many stops did you make before the accident happened? A. I will have to count them up—Washington, Eureka, Secor, El Paso, Gridley, Chenoa, and we were flagged at Weston, and in starting out of there we pulled out the draw bar of one of the cars.
Q. What are these drawbars? A. They are a patent coupler.
Q. Two were pulled out? A. Yes, sir, in the same car. We set that car out at Weston.
Q. Did you take on another car? A. Not at Weston. We took coal at Fairbury, and took water there, and at Forrest we coupled on to another car; we tried the brake again, and started out all right.
Q. Did that apply to the new car or to all? A. You cannot try one without trying all.
Q. What was the response? A. All right.
Q. That was at Forrest? A. Yes, sir. We stopped at the crossing at Chatsworth, and started out of there.
Q, Did you take any passengers on at Chatsworth? A. Yes, sir, 20 or 30. In leaving there the engineer eased her up a little, and I had put in the fire just before we got to the bridge, and was looking out of the window to get some air.
Q. Which window were you looking out? A. The north window on the left side. All at once I felt a jar and a jump, and she turned over, and the timber was crashing all around me. The first thing I knew I was down in the ditch, and the steam was striking me and scalding me. I thought I was gone for about a minute. I was standing right in the wreck; there was nothing binding me at all, and I got right out.
Q. At what point was that with respect to the bridge? A. About 200 feet East of the bridge. The first thing I did, I looked for the engineer, and I could not find him. The next thing I saw was the fireman, Mr. Rogers; he shook hands with me. Then there was a lady right next to us, Mrs. Clark; we tried to get her out, then we saw fire connecting from the fire box of the second engine, and we put that out. Then I was trying to help this lady out again, and Mr. Armstrong came up and told me to go to Piper City and telegraph to Peoria what had happened. I started down the track, and I saw the engine standing there, and I said to Jack: "If she is not off the track, we will ride up to Piper City, if she has enough water." We got there all right. We aroused the town with the whistle. There were some ladies there and they dressed my wounds; I was scalded, bruised in the back and head, and a little all over. The ladies took me over to the drug store, and fixed me up, and I felt pretty good and started back on the extra. I went back to Piper City with the wounded, and stayed there.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. Where did you carry the water from? A. From the tank.
Q. To where the engine was? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You carried water to where your engine was? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you carry any water to the bridge? A. No, sir, I did not. The wind was blowing right straight across, and there was no possible danger there, simply sparks flying out. When I saw the bridge, there was nothing there but the abutments. When I left for Piper City, I looked and saw the bridge was burning.
Q. You were wrecked on the East side of the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see anything of the fire before you crossed? A. No, sir.
Q. When did you first see the fire? A. After I got out of the wreck, and before going to Piper City.
Q. You could see that the bridge was burning? A. Yes, sir, I could see that.
Q. When you went up to Piper City and returned, the stringers and ties were all burned out? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rogers—It looked at that time like there had been fire before you got there? A. Yes, sir, it was entirely burned.
Q. Could you see how much of the bridge was gone before you went to Piper City. A. No, sir, I didn't look.
Q. When you got back it was all gone? A. Yes, sir, all but the abutments.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. What was the engineer's name that was killed? A. McClintock. He was a very careful man and had the best eyes I ever saw. I never saw him approach a fire at all without stopping.
Q. How long after you got back to the wreck? Was it before you returned? A. I went back just before it rained.
Q. Is there anything that you would like to state further? A. The section man told me he had inspected the track at 7 o'clock, and that it was all right.
Q. What is him name? A. Harry Reed.

E. N. ARMSTRONG.

Mr. Armstrong being duly sworn was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. E. N. Armstrong.
Q. What is your age? A. 42.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Peoria.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I am Superintendent of the Toledo, Peoria & Western Railway Company.
Q. How long have you been in that business? A. 22 years.
Q. You have been in that business for 22 years? A. I have been Superintendent for 7 years, train master before that, and chief train dispatcher.
Q. What was your business on the 10th of this month? A. I was Superintendent of the Toledo, Peoria & Western Railroad.
Q. What were you doing that evening? A. I left Peoria at 7:40.
Q. With what train? A. The Niagara Falls train.
Q. Any accident happen to that train? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what the condition of the train was when you started? A. First class condition; the train was carefully inspected.
Q. Why do you say that? A. Because I had competent men to examine the train to know that everything was all right. The cars had been there all day.
Q. Were they destined to Niagara Falls? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had them inspected with reference to their condition? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How about the brakes? A. They were all in first class condition. We tested them twice.
Q. How many engines did you have attached? A. Two; both of them in front.
Q. How many cars did you have? A. Fifteen.
Q. What were they? A. Engine and baggage car, the pay car, then 5 ordinary day coaches, 2 chair cars, and 6 sleepers, making 15 in all.
Q. What kind of sleepers were they? A. Pullman.
Q. What time did you leave Peoria? A. 7:40.
Q. What speed were you running? We were scheduled about 28 miles an hour, including stops. We were due to arrive at the State Line at 11  o'clock.
Q. How many stops did you make? A. Washington to load passengers, Eureka, El Paso, Gridley, Chenoa, Weston, (we had to set out a coach at Western,) Fairbury, Forrest, (to get another coach,) stopped at Chatsworth, and stopped East of there.
Q. You took on passengers at all of them? A. Yes, sir. A few got off at these stations. People that were coming out as far as El Paso, I told them they could come on this train.
Q. You were with the train? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you call the point where the accident happened? A. One-half way between Chatsworth and Piper City.
Q. Has that stream any name? A. No, sir; the bridge I believe is number 63.
Q. You were with it then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what hour did that accident happen? A. The engineer's watch stopped at 11:54; that's as near the time as I can tell you.
Q. Did anything attract your attention before the accident actually happened? A. Yes; I felt the front engineer set his brake or reverse the engine. I felt him shut it off and reverse it. He could do it with one motion.
Q. Can you tell us at what point that occurred with respect to the bridge? A. Say 500 feet from the bridge.
Q. West of the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you say that distance? A. I judge it was about three telegraph poles.
Q. Where would that place the engine with respect to the bridge? A. One and a half telegraph poles spaces—about 250 feet West; that is my impression.
Q. What were you doing at that time? A. I was sitting at the southeast corner of my car. The agent at Chatsworth had given me some tickets to take to the agent at Gilman; they had run out over there. I had put them in my pocket. I stepped back into my own car and set there—I was quite warm, and was thinking of what I had to do at Gilman, and then I felt this shock of the engineer shutting off the steam, and I also felt the air brake set almost immediately from the rear engine. I knew something was wrong, and I caught hold of the bar across the window in order to steady myself, and looked out as far as I could see, to see what was the matter. My next recollection is of seeing the fire.
Q. How could you see down there? A. Through the large window in the forward end of my car. I pulled myself forward and could see right down into it.
Q. You saw the fire below? A. Yes, sir; it was only an instant until I was going heels over head, the train had stopped and a cloud of steam and hot water was around me. [ disentangled myself and the fire was coming out of the side of the fire box, and up through the drivers. I saw a party in the car on the North side and I gave him a pull and he came out all right, and says "I am all right, let's see how Mrs. Parker is." We then tried to get her loose but found that she was fast; I ran around and got a man and told him to come and help get this lady out. It struck me at once to stop the fire, and I started some of the men to fighting the fire, and chopping out the ends and getting everything loose and manage to keep that down; I got other men to shove the sleepers away and keep them from burning. I found when I got back to the engine that there was fire there, and I took a bucket of water away from a man, and then my pumper from Piper City came along with another bucket of water.
Q. What interval had elapsed after you stopped before his arrival? A. I should judge a space of an hour.
Q. During this interval you had been all around? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had the fire attracted your attention particularly before that time at the engine? A. I had been there before, but had seen no fire before this time.
Q. No car was burned? A. No, sir.
Q. Was anybody burned? A. No, sir.
Q. None of those that were fastened? A. No, sir.
Q. Commissioner Marsh — A. You saw fire as you went over the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before you went over, the two engines and tenders, and baggage car had passed over? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rinaker—A. When you got this bucket of water you put the flame out? A. Yes, sir, and put some men there to take care of it.
Q. Had you up to that time gone to the bridge? A. Yes, sir, this was some time after that.
Q. What was the condition of the bridge when you first went back to it? A. The East cap was burned so that it had fallen down. The fire caught in the East end first, and the entire upper works were on fire. We used for those bulk heads old stringers and the fire was working down to those. It had taken fire in the East end of the stringers and worked Westward and down. A storm was coming and a wind ahead of it.
Q. From what direction was the wind? A. First from the South, and after the rain from the North.
Q. This steam that was escaping from the engine, did it do any harm? A. Only to my feet.
Q. Did it scald any of the other passengers? A. No, sir.
Q. Except the fireman?. A. I didn't know that then.
Q. Had you been over this track recently before the accident? A. About three weeks ago.
Q. Do you know whether the grass had been burned off near this place? A. Not of my own knowledge, the reports that came to me said it had been.
Q. From whom? A. The section foreman.
Q. Who is the section foreman? A. Tim Coughlin.
Q. Where is Tim Coughlin? A. At the wreck.
Q. Whom does he report to? A. The road master, Chris Ennis.
Q. Where is he? A. At the wreck.
Q. Were orders issued to burn the grass—if so, who issued those orders to burn the grass? A. I did.
Q. Do you recollect whether you wrote any order with respect to burning off this particular grass? A. No, sir, it was a general order to the road master.
Q. Did you know personally anything about the condition of that bridge? A. I had not inspected the bridge personally.
Q. Who does inspect them? A. The master of bridges.
Q. Who is he? A. J. H. Markley.
Q. Where is he? A. At the wreck. He made the inspection the 14th of May, and reported this bridge in first class condition. The stringers, ties and caps were 14 months old, and the piling were good for 2 years.
Q. Is that report in writing? A. No, sir, it is a verbal report made from his notes in his book; he comes to me with his book.
Q. Did you make any record of that yourself? A. Not specially. Anything that is in good order, we don't make a record of. I had taken pains to have the section men go over their track—I gave the order Tuesday evening to telegraph Chris Ennis to have all his section men go over their sections and see that the bridges were all right. I had taken precaution to have his men examine the bridges, especially for fire. For fear I wouldn't get him I sent the order to a good many section foremen direct.
Q. Can you furnish a copy of that order? A. I can give you the original—I think I can repeat it from memory. [Repeating from memory.]   "Peoria Illinois, Aug. 9th.
                       C. ENNIS, Gilman.
              Instruct all of your section foremen to go over their entire section the last thing after quitting work Wednesday and examine carefully for fires.
                      (Signed) E. N. ARMSTRONG."
Q. Your position is Superintendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have charge of the rolling stock? A. In a general way.
Q. Who is the Master Mechanic? A. Beriah Warren at Peoria.
Q. You speak of the fact that this train was examined at Peoria—under whose direction was it done? A. I directed Mr. Warren to have it done. The sleeping cars were brought in there a part Tuesday night, and part Wednesday morning.
Q. Is there anything more that you want to state about it—by the way how many persons were killed and injured? A. The cars were all wrecked except the sleepers. I think there are about 80 dead; 71 killed outright; that is they died before I got around to them.
Q. How many are injured? A. Nearly 100. We had made up a schedule for this train for their running time, and scheduled the train to leave Peoria at 7:15, and arrive at the State Line at 11. As we started out of Peoria we were trying to make up this time, but after we got out a ways we quit trying to make up any time, and we were going along at about 30 or 35 miles an hour. I don't think we run 45 miles an hour at any time, but our track would have been perfectly safe to run at that rate.
Q. What was the general condition of the track? A. Fair.
Q. What in respect to ties? A. They are good.
Q. How many to the mile? A. 3,000.
Q. What kind of rails? A. Steel, 52 and 56 pounds to the yard.
Q. How are the rails connected? A. Two bolts in each end, and four bolts in each joint.
Q. Was any part of the track displaced by this accident prior to or when you struck the bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know of any of the wheels being broken? A. I saw one had broken—
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You spoke about the brakes being set at about 300 yards from that little bridge, then you looked out at the window when you passed over this little bridge, and you could see the fire down below? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long after you looked until you went back to the bridge? A. Probably 5 minutes.
Q. You are satisfied in your mind that the bridge was nearly burned out? A. The East end of the stringers were burned.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Do you desire to make any further statement? A. I don't think of anything else.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. You say you felt the brakes put on and the engine reversed? A. Yes, sir, the sensations would be about the same.
Q. Was the air brake also set? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were either of these restored again? A. No, sir, the brakes were all set.
Q. The brake on the first engine must have been restored you think? A. There were so many shocks that I wouldn't be able to distinguish.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Could you furnish us the man who has charge of the track, and the road master? A. Yes, sir.

Peoria, Illinois, August 16th, 1887.
Mr. Armstrong recalled. Examined by Commissioner Rogers.

Q. Mr. Armstrong I believe you stated at the investigation at Chatsworth on the 12th, that you were the Superintendent of the T., P. & W. Ry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were on that train at the time of the wreck, and that your car was the first one next to the baggage car—first one containing passengers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You also stated that you felt the engineer set the brakes on the bridge; it was at that time that you looked out of the front window and could see between the cars the fire burning the bridge? A. Not that time, we had run quite a distance before I saw the fire.
Q. When you first looked out you could see, from the position that you were in, between yours and the baggage car? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long was that before you got on to the bridge? A. It was a very few seconds.
Q. That was after you felt the brakes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In passing over the bridge you could see the fire by looking down between the two cars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your impression at that time as to the condition of the bridge, did the ties, rails, stringers, etc., look to be in their proper condition? A. That I am unable to say. I could see there was a chasm there full of fire.
Q. From the time your car struck the bridge do you think it remained upon the rails until it struck the East side? A. I think the rails were in place when my car struck it, and that the rails on the other side were perhaps out of place.
Q. You think your car left the track on the East side of the bridge? A. I think it did. It is purely from feeling. I think the distance I went before feeling the strong shock was far enough to carry my trucks across this bridge.
Q. How long was it, Mr. Armstrong, after you crossed the bridge before you returned to the bridge again—when you next saw the bridge? A. It was less than five minutes.
Q. What was the condition of the bridge at that time as it looked to you? A. The East end of the South pair of stringers were broken off.
Q. The East end of the South line of stringers were broken off? A. I could not see the North stringer, I did not see it until I got around there with an extinguisher; I was on the South side.
Q. What was to hinder you from seeing the North side? A. There were five or six pairs of trucks in the way, and I could not see it.
Q. How far was the second engine from the East end of the bridge? A. About 175 feet.
Q. What was the condition of that engine? A. She was lying on her side on the South side of the track and the tender was on the North side.
Q. Where was the baggage car and what was its condition? A. It was between the engine, standing something in the same position that my car was, and between it and the engine.
Q. Did it go as far as the engine? A. It was right against the engine.
Q. How far was your car from the East end of the bridge? A. About 160 feet I should think.
Q. Then your car seemed to keep right along with the engine? A. Nearly so.
Q. Were the trucks under your car? A. No, sir.
Q. Where were they dropped, do you know? A. Mr. Warren can probably tell.
Q. How many cars crossed the ditch? A. Nine cars.
Q. Crossed the ditch? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you call the baggage car one? A. Yes, sir, and my car the second.
Q. There were eight passenger cars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many cars dropped their wheels in the ditch if any? A. As near as I can recollect six pairs of trucks dropped in that hole. I didn't count them, Mr. Warren can tell you.
Q. How many cars remained on the West side? A. One sleeper run up on to the bridge, and there were five behind that.
Q. It was standing on the bridge? A. Yes, sir, it was standing on the bridge.
Q. What was its position; was more than one-half across? A. Just about half across.
Q. What was it standing on Mr. Armstrong? A. It was resting on the rails in front.
Q. Were the rails gone? A. They had bent down.
Q. The ties were almost all knocked off? A. The ties were burned mostly.
Q. Were your cars examined before you left Peoria to see if they were in good condition? A. They had been here all day and had been examined and put in good condition.
Q. They were good cars? A. Yes, sir; I took them out of our regular trains, and some of them I borrowed from the Pullman Company.
Q. Have you any knowledge Mr. Armstrong of the cause of the fire? A. No, sir.
Q. What is your opinion about that? A. My own actual belief is that the local freight train dropped a coal, and it was burning when the section men examined the bridge, and they failed to set it. It was very dry and a very small spark may have dropped down on the cap and laid there, and perhaps not made any smoke.
Q. Was there any foundation for the rumor that pickpockets set it on fire? A. In my opinion, no, sir. I don't believe there was anything of the sort.
Q. What is your opinion about the safety of running long trains with double headers? A. I think it is safe, or I never should do it. I cannot see what difference it makes whether the power is in one or in two engines.
Q. Supposing the brakes were set when on the bridge; with a train as heavy as that, wouldn't it be more likely to sink the bridge than if it was a lighter one? A. No, sir. Each car as it comes on the bridge has its own effect.
Q. In reversing the steam wouldn't that act as a prop against the other and be more likely to weaken the bridge by so doing? For instance; you had 16 or 17 cars, and just as you got on the bridge to reverse the steam, wouldn't that have a tendency to break the bridge more than an ordinary train? Have a tendency to make the strain upon the bridge greater at that time? A. I don't see that it would make the strain greater. The force is in a horizontal direction.
Q. What would be the mechanical effect of that on the bridge? A. It would slide it toward the East.
Q. Wouldn't you consider that on a weak bridge it would be unsafe for a train the length of that and two engines, to set the brake and try to stop it right on the bridge? If the bridge was a weak one, you wouldn't feel as safe as to set it back from the bridge? A. That's rather a new problem; I don't know whether I would or not. I have had very little to do with these bridges.
Q. Wouldn't the first engine when it struck on the East side, run off there and all pile upon it right across the ditch? A. No, sir, for this reason: the momentum of the cars will cause them to jump a 15 foot chasm going at that rate of speed. As a sample, we had a bridge burned out once, and the engine jumped entirely across the chasm; the engine jumped clear across before turning over on the other side. The momentum would carry them across that chasm. I think if that bridge had been entirely gone, the cars would have gone across the chasm.
Q. That must have been a good speed? A. Not necessarily so. I had this case where the engine and baggage car went clear across.
Q. How many sleepers did you say there were that didn't pass over the bridge? A. Five.
Q. They were not injured? A. No, sir.
Q. Did part of these people go on to Niagara Falls? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it your opinion that the second engine left the track at the East end of the bridge and run along on the ties? A. Yes, sir, I think it run right along on the ties. My own theory is that the first engine jumped and struck the rails just right, but the tender didn't, but pulled the rails out of shape so that the second engine didn't have anything to run on.
Q. The passenger cars were most all on the track? A. It is hard to tell how they were. You couldn't tell just how the track was.
Q. How high were the cars piled up in the wreck? A. Just about as high as a coach.
Q. Some piled on top of the others? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Rinaker—What became of those trucks that were knocked off? A. They run over the rails and down on either side of the bank.
Q. You say that five minutes after you looked at the fire between the cars, that you went back to the bridge. What sort of a fire was it? A. There was not very much blaze, because the wind from the South was carrying what little blaze there was to the North.
Q. Did it make much light? A. Not very much; of course it made some light.
Q. To what extent had the timbers burned when you got there? I mean the timbers composing the bridge. The stringers were three-fourths gone.
Q. What are the caps? A. The caps are the timbers that are laid on the piling, and then the other way we lay the stringers.
Q. How were the posts? A. They were burned, but had not impaired the strength of the timbers.
Q. Did you have water? A. No, sir, not at that time.
Q. Did you have water in the tender? A. Yes, sir; I finally found it about 500 feet East of all the wreck and got water out of it and gave it to the wounded. I also took a little and put out fire that started from the engine.
Q. These timbers were all dry, were they not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they all oak? A. The caps were oak, the stringers were pine.
Q. What were the posts? A. White oak piling.
Q. How many rows of piling were there? A. Two. There had been another, but we dispensed with that when the new bridge was built.
Q. Four on each side? A. I think it is four.
Q. Is there any curve in the road between that bridge and Piper City? A. No, sir.
Q. Is there any considerable elevation in the ground between those points? A. Two or three.
Q. Is Piper City higher or lower? A. We will give you that profile today.
Q. You say Piper City would be lower? A. I didn't answer that, but I should think it would be a little higher.
Q. Are the intervening elevations above the level of this bridge? A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. You think Piper City is higher than the bridge? A. I should think it was higher.
Q. Is it as high as those intervening elevations? A. No, I think not.
Q. Would there be any considerable difference? A. That I cannot answer accurately. I have an engineer there today to make a profile from Chatsworth to the county line.
Q. How is it standing at Chatsworth? Is that elevation greater or less than at the point of the level of the bridge; is there any difference? A. It is pretty hard to answer those questions, there are so many elevations. The bridge is lower.
Q. Is there any curve between Chatsworth and the bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there anything to hinder a person at either of those stations, Piper City and Chatsworth, from seeing a fire on the bridge? A. I think it would be a very faint light. Yesterday I stood on the coach at that bridge, and I could see into Chatsworth what I thought to be about the top of the platform—the depot platform —by standing on the platform of the coach.
Q. Are there any houses near that bridge? A There are some near, but I can not give the distance. They are hidden by trees, so I cannot see the houses. I think one-half a mile is the nearest; I may be mistaken.
Q. How many houses are there between Chatsworth and the bridge, from which the bridge can be seen? A. I don't recollect any.
Q How is it between there and Piper City? How many houses are there in the vicinity of the bridge? A. I don't know. There are some houses there, but I don't know anything about the distances.
Q. You left Peoria with the train, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get off at all the stations between there and Chatsworth? A. Not all of them.
Q. Did you get off at Chatsworth? A. No, sir, I was in the baggage car door.
Q. You didn't have occasion to direct your attention towards the bridge? A. No, sir, my attention was directed the other way.
Q. You found the agent at the station when you arrived there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There were switches at Chatsworth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They were in good order? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are the switches in charge of any particular man? A. The agent has charge of them.
Q. Did you take on passengers at Chatsworth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recollect the names of any of them? A. They were strangers to me.
Q. You said something about a freight train. What train was it? A. Train No. 16, or the local freight.
Q. Which way was it going? A. East, and left Chatsworth about 4:30.
Q. Who was in charge of that train? A. Mr. Stillwell.
Q. Who was the engineer? I am speaking of the freight train. A. I should have to look at the train sheet to tell that.
Q. Is that the telegram you had sent the day before the accident? (exhibiting telegram). A. Yes, sir.
Copy of telegram is herewith submitted as part of this evidence, and marked exhibit "A."
Q. Who is that addressed to? A. All agents East of here.
Q. Who were your section bosses between Chatsworth and Piper City? A. Tim Coughlin was the section boss there.
Q. What's the station agent's name at Chatsworth? A. T. P. Liston.
Q. At Piper City? A. J. M. Mason.
Q. Did you have any other men in your employ at those places than those you have mentioned? A. Three or four track men in that gang.
Q. Do you remember their names? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Are they still in your employ? A. Yes, sir; none of them have quit or been discharged so far as I know.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. You say the car that you were in passed East of the bridge about 160 feet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the coupling in front or rear broken? A. Both of them were broken when we stopped.
Q. You said that in passing over the bridge you were looking out of the front window, and downwards? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And saw the fire in the bridge? A. Yes; I was trying to see what they had shut off the steam for.
Q. And the bridge seemed to sink down at the East end?
A. Yes, sir, and the shock came just about the time the trucks would get to the East end.
Q. When you looked at the bridge the next time, about five minutes after the wreck, how low down below its proper place was the East end of the South stringer? A. It is pretty hard to answer that. The West end still laid on the cap, and the East end was burning and broken off, and laid on an angle from the West to the East end, and I cannot tell what was holding it up. It is a 7x16 inch timber. The weight of the ties behind would probably hold it. It laid at an angle from the West to the East end. It is something that I didn't charge my mind with at all. My idea was to get the fire out.
Q. Do you recollect the condition of the rails upon the bridge at the time you first went back and looked at the bridge? A. No, sir, I cannot tell you. I saw it afterwards when it was burned down.
Q. How long after? A. Near daylight. That was the time we got the fire out.
Q. You mean they had not been removed before that time? A. The rails.
Q. About daylight were the stringers still strung across the chasm? A. No, sir, everything was burned out of there by that time. Everything was completely burned up.
Q. What had become of this sleeping car? A. It stood there all the time. We stationed a man there with a bucket of water and a tin cup and he threw water upon the bottom of it.
Q. Mr. Armstrong, a good deal has been said about this long train and double-header. I wish you would state which was the safest way to have run that train, in two sections with one engine in front of each, or in one section with two engines in front? A. The safest way is in one section.
Q. Please state your reasons for that conclusion. A. If you run a train in two sections and anything happens to the first train there is danger of an accident by the second section running into it.
Q. That would depend upon how close they run them together? A. It would depend something upon that. As a sample which is practically the same thing, take the C. & A. where a freight train ran into a passenger train. The same thing would have happened if we had been running it in two trains. I don't think the size of the train cuts any figure at all. The more cars on a train, of course the more people you get into a small space.
Q. Don't trains run in what they call blocks? A. I don't know of any West. The Pennsylvania Central run something on that system.
Q. Do they telegraph the arrival? A. The telegraph is a part of the block system; when a train passes a station nothing is allowed to pass until instructions are received from the next station that the train has arrived.
Q. Does it obtain in the West? A. I don't know of any.
Q. Does that system obtain West of Pittsburgh? A. I don't know.
Q. What roads in the East adopt that block system? A. I know of the Pennsylvania most, because I have been over it.
Q. You have been a railroad man for 22 years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Please state whether a train of 15 cars, 14 of them containing passengers, is considered by railroad men as a dangerous number of cars to run in one train. A. No, sir, it is not.
Q. Have you known on other Western roads of trains of that length having been run before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Please state when and where. A. I have run them myself on the Wabash. It is pretty hard to give dates.
Q. Beside yourself? A. I can see such trains going out of Chicago almost any day. The regular train out of Chicago used to be 12 cars with 4 or 5 sleeping cars behind. The C. B. & Q. run such trains every day.
Q. As high as 12? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Any more than that? A. I think I am safe in saying yes to that.
Q. You know that is done on the C. B. & Q.? A. Yes, sir. I know the same day we run our train to Niagara Falls they run over the Lake Erie & Western from Bloomington with 22 cars.
Q. What road was that? A. The Lake Erie & Western.
Q. When? A. The same day we run our excursion.
Q. Running East from Bloomington? A. Yes, sir. I was on a train on the Wabash the other night; we had 12 cars including 4 or 5 sleepers; we struck a broken rail and there was not a person scratched.
Q. How many cars? A. 11 or 12. It is a common thing to run double-headers I consider it dangerous to put an engine behind, for if anything goes wrong with the front engine, the rear engine would shove the train into it.
Q. There have been some reports in the newspapers that previous to this train leaving Peoria the engineer on the second engine (McClintock) remonstrated with you against running that train in one train, but suggested that it be run in two; did he do so? A. It is entirely without foundation. I didn't know that man was going until I got to the depot. We stood there and talked before the train started, and I said "Mc., will we get there?" He said "certainly; 21 could pretty near take them alone.'' A gentleman named J. M. Whepley can probably tell you something that Mr. McClintock said which entirely contradicts that story.
Q. Where does he live? A. His home is in New York; he was here putting an air brake on one of our engines, and the two men drifted together.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Is he here now? A. He is not in town to-day. He has gone to Kankakee. There was no conversation between Mr. McClintock and myself about running double headers.
Q. When will this Mr. Whepley be here? A. I don't know. He didn't state just when.
Q. Is the engineer's widow living here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The dispatch of yours dated on the 9th, giving instructions relating to inspecting bridges and track the last thing on the day of the 10th, relative to fires, etc., was addressed to Chris Ennis. Who is Mr. Ennis? A. The road master in charge between here and the Indiana State Line.
Q. Where is he now? A. On his way to Peoria.
Q. Mr. Armstrong, this telegram to Mr. Ennis purports to be a copy. Where is the original? A. On file in my office.
Q. Will you produce the original? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you do it today? A. Yes, sir.
Subsequently Mr. Armstrong presented the original telegram, a copy of which is herewith submitted, and marked exhibit " B ".
Q. What is the difference in the cost of running this train as one train, or running it in two? A. $1.11 to run it to the State Line.
Q. Wherein would that extra cost be? A. It would be that I had a brakeman on this train, and if I had run it in two sections he would have been a conductor. The difference in their pay is $1.11. The two engines would have been the same expense.
Q. What experience have you had with running trains with two engines over this road—any? A. Yes, sir; we have run double-headers on passengers before, and we are doing it constantly with freights. We had a double-header last night.
Q. Why did you do it? Because they were heavy, or simply to test the bridges? A. Because the business called for it.
Q. How long has that been the case? A. We have been doing it occasionally ever since I have been connected with the road.
Q. How frequently? A. That's hard to answer.
Q. That's in your business to know? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you direct it? A. Not always. The business comes in sort of schools of cars.
Q. When does it require it? This time of the year? A. It is liable to come any day in the year.
Q. What effect on the strength of the bridges would it have to run two engines instead of one? A. It wouldn't make any difference at all, because you cannot get two engines on a bridge like the one that burned.
Q. What is the length of an engine? A. Between the drivers where the weight is, it is from 8 to 8 1/2 feet.
Q. Then the whole weight of the engine would come on this bridge? A. The bridge had a 13 foot opening.
Q. It is called a 15 foot bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But the opening was only 13 feet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The length of an engine between the drivers where the weight is, is from 8 to 8 1/2 feet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the engines attached to this train to which the accident happened the average size? A. Yes, sir; the one in front was the largest one we have.
Q. Did you ever have it on a double-header before? A. Yes, sir; I don't recollect it being on the East end of the road, but we have had it on the West end.
Q. What was the weight of this engine? A. 21 weighs 40 tons.
Q. What was the weight of the other? A. Probably about 34 tons.
Q. Was the hind engine the average size of passenger engines? A. Yes, sir, the ordinary size. There was a little difference in them.
Q. What's the average weight of the other passenger engines? A. 34 or 35 tons.
Q. This 21 was a new engine? A. About 6 months in use.
Q. How long have you been on this road? A. Since 1871.
Q. In what capacity? A. Train dispatcher and train master.
Q. What is a train master? A. He has charge of making up and moving trains, and takes charge of the men. There were two years that I was off this road.
Q. What were you doing then? A. I was with the Wabash.
Q. In what capacity? A. Superintendent.
Q. What division? A. Chicago, Iowa and Middle Divisions.
Q. How many miles did you have under your control? A. Over 1,400 miles.
Q. What were your duties? A. I had charge of the bridges, buildings and transportation department.
Q. Did you have to know the condition of the rolling stock? A. In a general way.
Q. Did you have to know the condition of the roads and bridges? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you get that information? A. Personally.
Q. What did you know about bridges before that time? A. What I learned by growing up on a railroad.
Q. In what did your inspection of bridges consist? A. Looking them over, looking at the timbers and examining them, and seeing whether the openings were too wide, etc.
Q. Are you a mechanic so as to know? A. I have some pretty good mathematical ideas.
Q. Are you an engineer? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever build a bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever superintend one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your observation was comparing one bridge with another and so on? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What other things did you have to do as superintendent of transportation? A. His duties are pretty hard to tell.
Q. You followed that business for two years? A. I was with the Wabash for two years before I came back on this road.
Q. Were you in any other capacity? A. Ihave not been out of the railroad service.
Q. When you came back in what capacity did you enter the service of the T., P. & W.? A. As Superintendent of the road.
Q. In what did your duties consist on this road? A. In seeing that things were properly handled.
Q. Where were your headquarters? A. Peoria.
Q. What did you have to do here? A. Attend to the correspondence.
Q. Whom did you correspond with? A. With the freight agents along the line, the road master, and with the section foremen.
Q. Did you have control of the track? A. In a general way.
Q. You did through the road master and his subordinates? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever examine the track yourself? A. Yes. sir.
Q. How much? A. At least once a month.
Q. What other things did you have to do? A. To see that trains were properly handled.
Q. How? A. Cars moved from the stations when they were loaded.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the selection of those who were to control the trains? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you give attention as to how they performed their duties? A. Yes, sir; in particular to the way in which the trains were made up, and how they were handled after they started.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the passenger trains in particular? A. The same as I had with the freights.
Q. What did you have to do with any passsenger train? Say the one to which this accident happened? A. I had to arrange to get the cars together; I ordered the train made up, and the order in which they should stand in the train—how many brakemen, porters, engines, etc.
Q. Did you give attention to that matter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the engines? A. I wanted one particular one for her strength; I wanted it because it had a powerful brake, so it would help to do the work.
Q. Did you give any personal attention to the condition in which this train was? A. I gave some attention to it. I tried to see that it was properly supplied with water, and that the brakes were all right.
Q. Did you give the latter item attention yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a judge? A. I know how they should work when they are tested by an engine.
Q. Was the master mechanic there? A. I don't know whether he was there when the train started or not.
Q. You gave attention to that yourself? A. Yes, sir. There are three or four car inspectors on every train that passes through here. I gave them some directions about this train.
Q. The inspection of the brakes was made by you and under your direction? A. The master mechanic may have been there.
Q. Is it a part of your business? A. Ordinarily I do not do it.
Q. How did you happen to do it this time? A. I happened to be there, and was very much interested in it, and was very anxious to see that everything was all right.
Q. And in fact you were carrying out a part of your duties as Superintendent? A. I suppose so.
Q. I want your judgment. A. I think it is safe to say yes.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. Did you intend to go through with this train? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What road did you intend to go over? A. Over the Eel River and a part of the Pennsylvania system.
Q. There was something said about this double-header, and the danger there was running them. You say that one of your engines will weigh 40 tons, and the other 34 tons. Suppose you were running over a bridge long enough to contain both of them at the same time; would you consider them as safe as one engine? A. Yes, sir, if the bridge was properly constructed.
Q. Suppose there were five engines put on? A. That depends entirely upon the construction of the bridge.
Q. In the way in which they are ordinarily constructed, don't you think two engines would be more dangerous than one? A. No, sir.
Q. Suppose this had been put in two divisions, with 7 or 8 cars in each division; wouldn't it have been probable that they could have been stopped easier at the bridge, than with the two together? A. No, sir; my experience has been that you can stop a long train easier than a short one.
Q. Why? A. The weight would help to hold the train. You can set the brakes on 50 cars with one engine.
Q. I believe one of the engineers swore that he could not stop it within half a mile. If there had been three cars couldn't you have stopped it easier? No, sir; you cannot stop an engine with one car as easy as with more.
Q. Does it take a quarter of a mile to stop a train, when it is running at the rate of 35 miles an hour? A. Yes; sir.
Q. I thought you stopped them very quickly. A. They can do it on a test, but you cannot do it every day.
Q. Then you think that a double-header with a long train is just as safe as an ordinary train? A. Yes, sir, I do.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. Do you know the names of some of the men at Chatsworth that testified to seeing the light of the burning bridge? A. A man by the name of Dolph.
Q. Do you know the names of the two passengers that testified to seeing the light at Chatsworth? A. I know a man by the name of Brown that was before the coroner's jury.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. How long would it take to set the air brakes on a long train such as this train was? A. Four seconds; four or five.
Q. Would the air pass back in that time? A. The air does not have to pass back; it is in a reservoir.
Q. How is the power applied? A. Through a cylinder; the air rushes into a cylinder.
Q. Is it under the control of the engineer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How does he let it on? A. He has a lever that releases the air in the reservoir and allows it to rush into the cylinder.
Q. Then the air doesn't rush through the entire train? A. No, sir.
Q. It acts simultaneously? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On every car? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the same time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would it take any longer on a train of 15 cars than on a train of 3? A. Yes, sir, a very little.
Q. What is the amount of the force applied that way? A. 50 pounds to the square inch.
Q. You say it would take longer to set the brakes on 15 cars than on 3? A. A trifle; the time would not be appreciable. You would hardly appreciate the difference in time. I saw a brake set on 50 cars cut up into 3 sections of 17 cars each, with the exception of the last section, it set so quick that I didn't notice it. I was in the middle of the train, and I never felt any jar at all which I would have felt if it had not been a single impulse. It is a single impulse.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. If this had been divided into two sections, doesn't it look to you as though there wouldn't have been as many cars torn up—isn't it probable that there wouldn't have been as many lives lost? A. Well, there might, and there might not. Your opinion is as good as mine. My opinion on that is not worth anything.
Q. If you had four wagons together going down hill they would have been harder to stop than one? A. I presume so.
Q. Doesn't the speed have a good deal to do with checking the cars? If you had been running 15 miles an hour you could have stopped quicker? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I believe you said you were running about 35 miles an hour? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was a time-table issued for the trip? A. Yes, sir, a running order.
Q. How fast was your time-table? A. 3 hours and 45 minutes for 111 miles.
Q. Is it not considered among railroad men that the front cars are in more danger than the hind cars as a rule? A. Yes, sir, I believe that is true.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. I think in your testimony the other day you said this bridge had been reported in good condition from an inspection made last May? A. Yes, sir, the 14th of May.
Q. By whom? A. J. H. Markley.
Q. Did he make a written report to that effect? A. He brought in his book on which he had noted the condition of every bridge on the road. Those that were considered good, of course, he didn't say anything about them. His book will show it.
Q. How soon after this wreck did you communicate with the officials at Peoria? A. I started for help inside of two minutes. I met the fireman and caught hold of him, and he said, "Where is McClintock?" I said, "I don't know, but you go to Piper City," and I told him what to do. Then I met the conductor and asked him "Where is Lew Lex?'' He was in the rear end.
Q. Was there a depot burned between Chatsworth and Peoria that night? A. Yes, sir; the depot at Farmdale, about five miles from here.
Q. What time was the connection cut off between Chatsworth and Peoria? A. About half past 2 o'clock.
Q. They were not cut before that time? A. No, sir; we had connection before that time.
Q. How long before those wires were put up again? A Not until daylight.
Q. Then you had no connection with Peoria after 2 o'clock? A. No, sir, no direct communication, but we had connection via Decatur and also via Moberly.
Q. Do you know the cause of that fire? A. A kerosene lamp that was hung on the wall exploded.
By Commissioner Rinaker—Q. In regard to pickpockets. Have you any evidence that there were any there when you were working around there? A. No, sir. I should have tried some means to have captured them.
Q. I saw it in the paper that you said you had seen some evidences of pillaging. A. In going around trying to do my duties, I would find a man trying to do something with a dead body, and I would ask him what he was doing, and he would say they were relatives of the family.
Q. Was there any robbery? A. Not so much as we thought at first.
Q. Do you know of an instance? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see anybody that had been robbed? A. I saw some, but I cannot tell you who they were. I think the people lost their stuff. I don't take any stock in the wholesale robbery theory. I have no doubt there was some robbery on the train. In going around I would see men working around the dead bodies, and I would ask them who they were and what they were doing—
Q. And they told you they were their friends? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What directions did you give if any, with respect to aid being furnished to the sufferers? A. In what way?
Q. Did you send for physicians? A. Certainly.
Q. Where to? A. To Piper City by the fireman of the rear engine.
Q. What did you tell the fireman to do? A. To notify Peoria what was the matter, and get the engine.
Q. You sent word, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what aid did come to the sufferers? A. There were some five or six surgeons that came over from Gilman on that engine that was there.
Q. From Gilman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did any come from Peoria? A. Yes, sir; they got there after dinner.
Q. How many got there then? A. I cannot tell you; I had gone to Chatsworth.
Q. How many cars brought the aid that came from Peoria? A. I don't know. Mr. Warren can tell you.
Q. Mr. Mason, I suppose is here? A. Yes, sir.
By Commissioner Marsh—-Q. There has been something said about a train from Peoria containing among others a number of physicians having been detained at Forrest City 2 or 3 hours. Do you know anything about that? A. I presume I know what you refer to. It was the train that was due to leave Peoria at 10:30. At Chatsworth it seemed as though everybody had to go through every house; people were rushing through the rooms that we were using for a hospital, and I held this train down at Forrest because the crowd that would come would be a detriment to those working.
Q. Was there on that train a number of physicians? A. I presume there were, but most of them were sight-seers, and the rest was a committee of 14 from Canton.
Q. Will you please state what steps the company took, if they took any, to take care of the wounded and dead, transporting them home, and to points that their friends would require? A. If anybody came to me and said they wanted to send bodies home, if they were points we could reach they were sent. I was trying to keep the dead bodies in Livingston county on account of the coroner. I ordered no bodies taken from Chatsworth until he said so. They were taken charge of by their friends and were sent home as fast as they could be. We left 10 or 12. They were sent here to Peoria and packed in ice. They have all been identified and taken care of but one woman. She has been placed in the vault.
Q. What final disposition has been made of the wounded? A. The greater part have been taken to their homes. There are now 8 at Chatsworth and 7 or 8 at Piper City. They are being taken to their homes; their friends are being carried there. We are doing everything that we can, and everything that I am asked to do to help them is done, and we have attended to every request that has been made. There are 3 people here whom I am sending home this afternoon to Ft. Madison. They will be transferred at Burlington. We have already settled with the express company for the charges on quite a number of the dead bodies. One went to Syracuse, New York, and the express charges were $38.

BERIAH WARREN.

Mr. Warren, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. Beriah Warren.
Q. What is your business? A. Master mechanic.
Q. How long have you been engaged in the business? A. About 24 years.
Q. Where? A. With the St. Louis, Alton & Terre Haute Railroad; Missouri Pacific Railroad; Indiana, Bloomington & Western Railroad; Indianapolis, Decatur & Springfield Railroad, and the Toledo, Peoria & Western.
Q. Where do you reside? A. St. Louis.
Q. You live in Peoria now? A. No, sir; my family is still there.
Q. Then your residence is still at St. Louis? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whom are you at work for at present? A. Toledo, Peoria & Western Railway Company.
Q. How long have you been in its employ? A. Two years last July.
Q. What are the duties of your position? A. Looking after the rolling stock.
Q. Do you know anything of this train that was wrecked on the 10th of August? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you know about it prior to starting as to its condition? A. The cars and engines were all looked after before leaving.
Q. By whom? A. Men under my charge.
Q. Did you give it attention yourself? A. Yes, sir; to a certain extent.
Q. How? A. Going around and looking at the different parts with my men.
Q. You had other men under you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us precisely what you did do there, and what was done with respect to this train before it left. A. Our cars coming into the shops here are inspected and looked after, and the necessary repairs are given them. We have inspectors at the depot at Peoria to examine the cars; and we have car cleaners and carpenters who inspect and repair them. If the men at the shop are required we notify them and they do the extraordinary repairing.
Q. You had that force organized? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How does it apply to this train? A. The men at the depot have a small amount of supplies, such as truck shoes, rods and bolts and such like, to do the necessary repairing, and putting in connections if anything be missing. There's a foreman looking after those men. We all have our duties to perform, and each makes his report to the other.
Q. Were they present when this train was made up? A. Not when it was made up, but before going out. I was there about 6 o'clock, saw the different men, and walked through the greater part of the cars; I went through the coaches, but didn't go through the sleepers. I gave instructions to have two-thirds water and one-third ice, and to see that everything was clean, etc. I looked at the brakes and couplings.
Q. Did you have a man to look after the brakes, couplings, etc? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were not there when the train left? A. No, sir.
Q. From what you know about it, what condition was it in when it departed on the night of the 10th of Aug? A. I considered it in a first class condition.
Q. Do you know anything about the brakes? A. They are inspected that way. If there is any failure of the brakes to work, the conductor reports it.
Q. The train left in good condition that evening? A. Yes, sir, in first class condition. In going that length, we would not let it go unless we considered it perfectly safe.
Q. Do you know anything about the propriety of hitching on two engines to a passenger train? A. I have had a good deal of experience of that kind.
Q. How, when and where? A. Take the Indiana, Bloomington & Western, for instance.
Q. Is that done under the direction of the master mechanic? A. No, sir.
Q. You say you have had experience. Do you mean you have ever directed anything of that sort? A. Yes, sir; I was Superintendent of the St. Louis, Alton & Terre Haute Railroad for a number of years. I have run as high as 70 cars in a train.
Q. Freight cars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What would you say to a train of fifteen passenger coaches? A. I should consider it perfectly safe. It is done quite often.
Q It is all right if nothing happens? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think it is a safe way to run a train of that size? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think it endangers the bridges? A. Not at all.
Q. Do you know how they were coupled? What about stopping them? A. The first is coupled with the—
Q. Which engineer had charge of the train? A. I think both of them to a certain extent.
Q. Whose will and power controlled the train? A. The second engineer had the air power; the forward one I think had most of the steam power.
Q. How would the engineer on the second engine know when it was necessary to co-operate with the engineer on the front engine in stopping? A. If anything occurred in front, he would be the one that would be most likely to see it. He would use his judgment about stopping just the same as the other.
Q. How would the engineer on the second engine know when the other wanted him to stop? A. If it was anything unusual, he could use his whistle for that purpose.
Q. The air brakes were under the control of the engineer next to the cars? A. Yes, sir; but there was a steam brake upon the drivers and tender of the first engine, which was under the first engineer's control.
Q. You say it left in good condition, and the manner in which it was propelled was safe, and conforms to your own experiences? A. Yes, sir, very much so.
Q. Do you know of passenger trains on this road having been propelled by two engines? A. Not that I recollect of; but there may have been; l am not sure. I don't recollect of two engines on a passenger train. Usually the trains are quite small.
Q. How long have you been connected with this road? A. Two years last July.
Q. Do you know anything of the condition of the bridges on the road? A. Not personally, only generally.
Q. Did you know anything of this accident, yourself? A. Not until after it happened.
Q. What time did you arrive there? A. Between 8 and 9 o'clock the next morning.
Q. Was the fire still burning? A. There were some little fire brands laying at the bottom of the ditch.
Q. What assistance was rendered by the railroad company in taking care of these people? A. Word was sent to me from the office and to each of these men, and I reported there about half past 1 o'clock.
Q. Who sent word to you? A. Mr. Mason was the man I found in charge. He sent a message direct to me.
Q. Who went with you besides these men you called up? A. Physicians from this place.
Q. How many? A. I cannot tell you. One was introduced to me, and there were men that I supposed to be physicians had tools. I should say five or six.
Q. Did any get on at any other point? A. Yes.
Q. How many left here? A. I know personally of but one.
Q. Do you know how mail trains left here? A. This was the first train. There was one left Forrest before I got there.
Q. What kind of a train did you go on? A. There were two coaches, tool car and derrick car and one engine.
Q. You took your wrecking train? A. Yes, sir, that was the one, and the cars were to accommodate whatever might turn up.
Q. That sort of equipment you had. You arrived there about 8 o'clock? A. I think about that time.
Q. What was the condition of things when you got there? A. Very bad.
Q. Describe them? A. Five of the sleepers had been taken to Chatsworth, and one was remaining at the wreck. The center of the car was nearly over the center of this bridge.
Q. Why had it not been removed? A. They had no power to move it.
Q. Why not? A. They had nothing to get there.
O. The car was across this chasm? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Describe that. A. The West end was standing with one truck on the track, the center of the car nearly over the center of the bridge opening; the East truck of the sleeper—one pair of wheels resting upon the rails at the West side of the bridge, the other two suspended by the rails in the opening; East end of car was resting upon the tops of the broken cars. There was first one coach laying near the bottom; the next car was driven under the first two coaches; the chair car was telescoped and lay within 10 feet of the end of the car, then that chair car on that, and then the end of this sleeper was on top of that.
Q. That would be four cars. A. There were remains of four cars, one on top of the other, the four occupying a space of about 75 feet in length. The floor of the topmost car would not extend 6 or 7 feet above the first.
Q. I suppose each went a little further than the other? A. There was a little difference; the cars would average about 50 feet; I should think they occupied in the neighborhood of 75 feet more than what one car would measure.
Q. Which car of the four was the farthest East? A. The top car was perhaps a little more than the bottom.
Q. Where were the other cars? A. East of this were the other coaches piled up in a similar manner and occupying a space of about one and a half car lengths. Next was coach No. 11 or special car lying crossways of track, and nearly at right angles, the most of the body South of the track.
Q. How far from the bridge? A. I didn't measure it; probably 160 feet.
Q. Where was the baggage car? A. Next to that, turned upon its side, and most of it on the North side of the track.
Q. On the left side? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was the tender? A. On the North side of the track, right under the baggage car. The tank laid right against the baggage car.
Q. Where was the engine? A. It was laying turned upon its right side on the South side of the track, near the baggage car and coach 11, and about ten feet from the track, lying parallel with it.
Q. None of those cars had been moved? A. No, sir.
Q. What had become of the people that were in those cars? A. I saw a number lying upon the platform at Chatsworth.
Q. Were there any persons in those cars when you got there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When the train left here what was its condition with respect to being late? A. I was not at the depot.
Q. Were the people in those cars dead or alive? A. Dead.
Q. How many were still there? A. I cannot tell you.
Q. You are master mechanic, what did you do? A. I commenced first to help get out and take care of the dead bodies. We used the machinery to get out the balance.
Q. Could you get them out without the aid of the machinery? A. I had to use axes and saws. It looked to me almost impossible to get them out.
Q. Were there many persons there aside from the passengers? A. A great many people. Teams were hitched in every direction.
O. Was Mr. Armstrong there when you got there? A. I saw him at Chatsworth.
Q. Who was there besides yourself in the employ of the company? I found Mr. Ennis there with his men.
Q. Where does he live? A. I think at Gilman.
Q. Did he have any assistance? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he have any tools? A. Yes, sir; axes, saws, picks, etc.
Q. What was he doing? A. Working to get the bodies out, and then to take care of the baggage.
Q. Who was carrying the baggage? A. Mr. Ennis.
Q. He had charge, did he? A. To a certain extent. Mr. Armstrong had men there to take care of it.
Q. They were under his charge- -they were Armstrong's men? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any robbery there? A. Nothing of the kind.
Q. To what extent was the baggage taken care of? A. It was taken up to Chatsworth. Word came to me from Mr. Armstrong that he was very anxious to get the baggage, and we stopped all work except taking care of the wounded and dead and attended to the baggage. Didn't attempt to do anything until the baggage was taken care of.
Q. Took care of the dead, wounded and baggage? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time were there very many doctors there? A. I don't recollect seeing many down there. I think the wounded were nearly all moved to Chatsworth and Piper City.
Q. You didn't go to Piper City? A. Not that day. I don't think there was a fifteen minutes but what some one man was sent out to see if anything could be done.
Q. Did you see anything more of Mr. Armstrong? A. Yes, sir, he was continuously going back and forth.
Q Were there any other railroad officials there? A. The Auditor, Mr. Usler.
Q. What was he doing? A. Assisting the wounded, etc.
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Four days.
Q. Until everything was taken care of? A, Yes, sir.
Q. The bridge had very little fire about it when you got there? A. Very little.
Q. Were there any parts of the cars in the chasm? A. The trucks of the sleeper and the coach trucks lay there, and six or seven upon the bank at the South and East side. Quite a number left at that point.
Q. Did any burn up? A. No, sir. The trucks on this Pullman sleeper were burned a little just where it stood over the center of the bridge.
Q. Were any of the cars that were described as being telescoped burned? A. Not any of them.
Q. Was there any fire on any of them? A. No signs of fire.
Q. Then you would say that no car was burned? A. No, sir, only as I described.
Q. Don't think there was any loss of life from fire? A. No, sir.
Q. If there had been, you could have told from the looks of the cars? A. Yes, sir, I handled every car that was there; looked in between them for parcels and remains.
Q. Do you know of any other railroad official being about there the first day? A. I am not positive that I saw the President.
Q. Was there any water there? A. No, sir, not until after it rained.
Q. Did you observe in the vicinity of the bridge immediately to see whether fire had originated at some point off the bridge and been communicated to the bridge? Did you give attention to that subject? A. Yes, sir it had the appearance of the weeds being mowed down and cut off so as to prevent such fires. It had been burned up and down there for probably half a mile.
Q. Did you see any signs of fire immediately at the bridge? A. No, sir, except this rubbish.
Q. Do you recollect whether the grass on each side of that bridge, close to the bridge, was green or dry? A. If I recollect on the North side there were some spots there that were green, but might have been dry enough to burn. I am not sure; there was considerable grass on that side. My recollections are that the South side was all burned off.
Q. Was it burned off or tramped down? A. It had been burned down.
Q. Close to the bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. How far from the bridge? A. I think as far as the right of way.
Q. How near the bridge? A. I should say 15 feet where you could see signs of it, that is on the South side.
Q. Could you see any signs on the North side? A. I don't recollect.
Q. Did you look? A. I suppose I did, and if it had been there I would have noticed it.
Q. Do you know of fire having been used there in burning up the grass and stuff? A. No, sir, only in a general way.
Q. It would be a matter of judgment to say whether it was recently burned or not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What became of the wounded and the dead? A. I think they had the wounded all away from there about the time I got there.
Q. Do you know anything about the condition of that bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. How much of it was burned when you got there? A. I don't recollect seeing anything but small pieces; I don't recollect seeing the ties.
Q. Who is the man that inspects the bridges? A. Mr. Markley.
Q. Is there anything else that you know about that accident that you have not told? A. I don't know that I do that would be of interest to you. I took the cars one by one and had men look under and see if there were parcels, and they found packages, etc.
Q. Do you know what was done with them when they were found? A. I think they were given to the officers and taken care of. They would come to me and say they had found some things, and I would tell them to take them to Mr. Armstrong.
Q. You didn't see any pillaging? A. No, sir. The cars were all turned over and examined from every point. Some people told me they were satisfied that there were more people under the cars, and I had that made clear to them that such was not the case, by turning them over again. I was going to tell them that I would turn them over again if they had the least doubts.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You say the cars went out of here in first-class condition? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom did they belong? A. Most of them belonged to the Company; all but the six Pullman sleepers.
Q. They had enough cars to do their regular business, and run the excursion? A. They were all safe and satisfactory to run that distance.

J. H. MARKLEY.

Mr. Markley, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rina-ker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. J. H. Markley.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Peoria.
Q. What is your business? A. Master of bridges and buildings.
Q. In whose employ are you? A. Toledo, Peoria & Western Railway Company.
Q. For how long? A. Two years last July.
Q. In the same capacity? A. I have been working for the T., P. & W. for about two years; have been in the business about 12 years.
Q. Where before? A. With the Wabash.
Q. In the same capacity? A. Part of the time, the rest as foreman. I was promoted when I was working for the Wabash.
Q. From what to what? A. From general foreman of the gang men to the general force.
Q. What are the duties of your present position? A. Looking after the bridges and buildings of the T., P. & W. Ry. Co.
Q. Are you a mechanic? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You learned the house carpenter business? A. Yes, sir, I worked for a contractor.
Q. In building bridges? A. No, sir, in building houses.
Q. Then you did what? A. Went into the bridging.
Q. Did you ever build a bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you worked at that business? A. About 12 years.
Q. Under whom? A. I commenced under my brother; he was superintendent of bridges. I have worked for the I. B. & W., for J. B. Matthew, Mr. Wallace, W. S. Lincoln and Mr. Carter of the Wabash.
Q. Did you ever build a bridge on your own account? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where? A. I rebuilt the one that burned down. I built a new span for the company about 4 miles East of Gilman, and quite a good many others.
Q. Did you ever build a bridge for any other railroad company? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How large? A. One hundred and fifty feet was the largest.
Q. How high? A. Twenty-five feet. The highest I ever worked on was seventy-five feet high.
Q. Then you understand how to build a bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know the condition of this bridge before the time of the accident? A. It was good. The bridge was examined on the 24th of last May.
Q. What examination did you make of it—what was the result of the examination? A. The stringers, ties and guard rail were put in a little over a year ago; the piling were good for two years more.
Q. This guard rail, was it pine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were the stringers? A. They were pine.
Q. What size? A. 7x16 inches, two under each rail.
Q. What were the caps made of? A. Oak, 12x12, and 14 feet long.
Q. The ties? A. Oak, 9 feet long and 6x8.
Q. How was that bridge constructed? A. The piling were in the ground 10 or 12 feet deep, 4 under each end of the bridge.
Q. Was there anything about them to keep them in place? A. Nothing only the caps.
Q. Was there anything in the bottom of the bridge to keep them from washing down? A. Nothing at all.
Q. Were there other posts in the ground there? A. There were four piling that stood right in the center of the bridge. That was the old bridge.
Q. Were there not a lot of old ties about the bridge some where? A. No, sir; there was a chunk of an old tie on the North side that was in the bank.
Q. Were there not some ties to keep the dirt from falling in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they old ties? A. No, sir, they were old stringers.
Q. How many were there? A. There were 4, about 24 feet long.
Q. Did those pieces of timber come against the posts? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were they, oak or pine? A. Pine.
Q. If fire caught in them it would connect with those posts? A. Gradually.
Q. Were you at the bridge at the time of the accident? A. I got there between 7 and 8 in the morning.
Q. Did you notice whether the old stringers were burned up? A. I did.
Q. Were they? A. They were all burned up. There were a few pieces of the bulk-heads there yet.
Q. From what you saw about the appearances of the fire, what's your opinion about where the fire begun? A. I cannot say.
Q. Fire might have been in those old timbers some time before it blazed, and not been observed? A. It's probable; but in not such a way but what it could have been seen.
Q. Did you have occasion to examine on that point? A. The bulk-heads at the West end of the bridge were all there; at the other end the trucks had fallen in, and I could not see.
Q. What was the size of the bridge? A. It was 15 feet long with a 13 foot span. The stringers were 15 feet long.
Q. Was it filled up with dirt back of the piling? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then it was only 13 feet between the posts? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How was the bridge built? A. The piling were driven in the ground, usually about 10 or 12 feet deep. Of course they are sawed off level, and the cap is put on them, and bolted to them. The cap consists of seasoned oak timber, 12x12 and 14 feet long, and is drift-bolted to the piling with iron bolts. Then come the stringers, bolted together about 20 inches from each end with iron bolts, and washers between the two. Next come the ties, and they are fastened to the stringers.
Q. What kind of rail was across that? A. Steel.
Q. Do you know the size and weight? A. I don't know, but I think it was a 4-inch steel rail. I don't know the weight.
Q. You got there between 7 and 8 o'clock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do when you got there? A. I examined the bridge, what was left of it. and walked around both sides of the wreck and examined it.
Q. What were you examining it for? A. I was looking to see how the fire originated, and how the right of way was burned.
Q Did you see any evidences that fire had come from the right of way? A. The grass had all been cut down by the section men.
Q. When? A. The section boss told me about two weeks before.
Q. Who is the section boss? A. Tim Coughlin.
Q. Were there a great many people there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were they doing? A. Taking out the dead bodies.
Q. Did you help? No, sir, but my men did, and I didn't see room for anymore.
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Until Sunday afternoon, about 2:20.
Q. What were you doing all that time? A. Helping to take up the wreck and build the bridge, etc.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. You considered the bridge in good condition? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You spoke about the caps being oak; what were the stringers? A. Pine.
By Mr. Lee—Q. Was that bridge similar to the one used upon the other roads you have worked for? A. It's a heavier bridge than is used on the I., B. & W. It is now the standard stringer for all roads. It is a little heavier than the C., B. & Q.
By Commissioner Rogers—It was put down inside of a year? A. A little over a year.

CHRIS ENNIS.

Mr. Ennis, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Commissioner Rinaker, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name? A. Chris Ennis.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Gilman, Illinois.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. About 25 years off and on.
O. What has been your business during that time? A. Railroading.
Q. For whom? A. T., P. & W.
Q. All that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what capacity are you employed now? A. Road master.
Q. How long? A. Since May, 1875.
Q. What are the duties of your position? A. Looking after the track and the section men.
Q. What about the track? A. To see that it is all right.
Q. In what respect? A. Kept up in good shape, so it will be safe for trains to go over.
Q. See that the bridges are not out of repair? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ties in place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many miles have you under your charge? A. 111 miles.
Q. How many section bosses have you? A. Nineteen.
Q. Of course then you had charge of the bridge that was burned last Wednesday evening? A. I had orders to look after it.
Q. What section boss had jurisdiction over that? A. Tim Coughlin.
Q. How many miles has he charge of? A. Six.
Q. How many did you say? A. Six, I think.
Q. How are the men distributed along the road generally? A. We have from four to five in every section.
Q. How many miles in a section? A. All six mile sections.
Q. Do you know this bridge where the fire occurred? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When had you seen it before the accident happened? A. About 3:30 in the afternoon.
Q. Why did you give attention to it at that time? A. I had orders from Mr. Armstrong to go over the track and examine the bridges and track.
Q. How did you get that order? A. By telegraph.
Q. Have you the telegram? A. No, sir, I don't believe I have.
Q. What was done with it? A. I don't know what I did with it; I don't know whether I took it out of the office.
Q. What office did you get it at? A. Watseka.
Q. Who gave it to you? A. The operator.
Q. Who is the operator there? A. His name is Greenbaum.
Q. You were at Watseka? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far is that from where the accident happened? A. Twenty-one or twenty-two miles.
Q. What did you do after you got that order? A. I issued the order right away to all of the foremen.
Q. Did you send one to Coughlin? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do then? A. I went home to Gilman, and went to bed. That was the night before the accident.
O. What did you do the next day? A. I went over the track between Gilman and Fairbury.
Q. How far is Gilman from here? A. Eighty-five miles.
Q. How far is Fairbury? A. Sixty miles.
Q. How far is Fairbury from Chatsworth? A. About 12 miles.
Q. How did you go over the road? A. On the first train, and went back on a freight train.
Q. Did you give any attention to the road? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what extent? A. The track, bridges, switches, etc.
Q. Did you stop anywhere? A. Yes, sir, at Forrest.
Q. Did you stop at any bridge? A. No, sir, I went up about a mile East of Fairbury.
Q. You didn't stop at any bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. Were the men at work along the line? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they have fire anywhere? A. Yes, sir, they were having some fire along the right of way.
Q. Where were they having fire that day that you saw? A. About a mile this side of Piper City.
Q. Did they have any fire near that bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. What time did you pass there? A. About 3:30 or 3:40 in the afternoon.
Q. Did you see that fire when you came this way? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you as you were returning? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That point was not near the bridge? A. About a mile and three-quarters.
Q. Did you see any burning near the bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember of seeing that bridge at all that day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you stop to look at any bridge? A. I don't think I did.
Q. What sort of a car were you on? A. Caboose.
Q. Inside? A. Inside and outside.
Q. When you passed this bridge were you inside or outside of the car? A. I think I was outside.
Q. Can you tell us that you saw that bridge at all that day—you know you saw it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think you saw all the bridges? A. I might have passed over some and not looked at them as sharp as others.
Q. Was your attention called particularly to this bridge? A. No, sir, not particularly.
Q. What time did you come this way over this bridge? A. 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning.
Q. What trains were on the road that day that you observed besides your freight train? A. There was no other train after I went over it until the accident occurred.
Q. Your train was at 3:30? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you pay pretty careful attention to the condition of the road that day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You gave it thorough attention? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You performed your duty that day just as all other days? A. Yes, sir.
Q. If anything had been out of the way, you would have seen it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think one and a half miles this side of Piper City they were burning grass as you went back in the afternoon? A. About a mile and three-quarters East of the bridge, I think.
Q. That would be how far from Piper City? A. About a mile.
Q. That bridge then is about two and a half or three miles from Piper City? A. Yes, sir, all of that.
Q. Who was in charge of that fire? A. There were two gangs right there.
Q. Where does the Chatsworth section begin, and where does it end? A. It begins a mile this side of Piper City, and comes West six miles.
Q. The fire was properly under Coughlin's charge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don't know whether the fire extended further West than you saw it or not? A. I don't think it was.
Q. Was there any dead grass between where you saw the fire and the bridge? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether any fire had been on the right of way just West of the bridge on that day? A. No, sir, I don't know; I don't think there was.
Q. Do you know whether it was burned off West of the bridge that day? A. It had been burned off West of the bridge before that.
Q. You don't know anything about any burning on the right of way West of the bridge that day? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you observe that it had been burned off prior to that time? A. It had been burned off before that.
Q. How close to the bridge did that burning go? A. It was burned past the bridge on the South side two weeks before that.
Q. Had the grass been cut before it was burned? A. Yes, sir, and shoveled out from under and around the bridge.
Q. You went home did you that night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you give Coughlin any directions that day? A. I don't believe I did. When I came to Chatsworth I asked the agent if he received that order, and he said yes.
Q. You sent the directions to Coughlin through the station agent? A. I sent it to him by telegram.
Q. What's his name? A. Liston.
Q. Were you at the scene of the accident? A. Yes, sir.
Q What time did yon arrive there? A. About 12:30; I came on that engine from Gilman.
Q. That night? A Yes, sir.
Q. You was at the scene of the wreck from beginning to end? A. I saw a good deal of it.
Q. What did you do when you got there? You came from Gilman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Got there at 12:30? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do when you got there? A. I commenced to carry water, and take care of the wounded and dead, and all I could do.
Q. Did you notice the bridge when you got there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was its condition? A. Burned down.
Q. How soon after you arrived there did you look at the bridge? A. Right off.
Q. You say it was burned down? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what extent do you mean to tell us the bridge was burned? A. The stringers were gone down, the ties, the piling and the posts were still burning.
Q. How far did you see the fire before you got there? A. I didn't see it until I got there.
Q. What hindered you; what was in the way? A. The cars were in the way, and the engine on the track hid the view.
Q. It was cloudy at that time was it? A. The coaches were in the way and I couldn't see it.
Q. You saw nothing of it until you got right there? A. No, sir.
Q. Was anybody doing anything to put out the fire? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What necessity was there in putting out the fire? A. I was afraid the coach over the bridge would take fire—the sleeper. If that had caught fire, it would have set fire to the whole business.
Q. Did you take any physicians with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you get them? A. Gilman.
Q. How many? A. Two or three.
Q. By whose direction? A. Mr. Armstrong's.
Q. That's all you could get? Yes, sir.
Q. How many physicians were there would you say? A. I cannot tell you. There were a good many; all that we could get.
Q. While you were at work there did you see anybody robbing the dead, etc? A. I cannot say whether they were doing it or not.
Q. You didn't see anything of that sort? Did you see anything that led you to believe they were being robbed? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you see? A. A stranger sent me to a man to get a pocket-book.
Q. Did you know that man? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he have the pocket-book? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say about it? A. He didn't say anything. This man that sent me after him had a suspicion of the man, and I got it.
Q. The fellow didn't say anything? A. Not a word.
Q. What did you say to him? A. He had a grip and an old oil coat, and he threw the grip on the car, and was putting the pocket-book in his pocket.
Q. What did you say to him? A. I didn't say anything to him.
Q. What did he do? A. He didn't do anything. I gave the pocket-book to Mr. Gould.
Q. Did you see any other person with a pocket-book? A. I saw several, but don't know who they were.
Q. Did you see any other instances of suspicious conduct? A. Yes, sir; when we were taking the dead out of the cars, there was a man there, I think his name is Godel—they said he had $500 and wanted me to get it, but I didn't want to.
Q. Was anybody molesting that man at the time? A. They would run right up there and say these are my friends, and would rip their grip-sacks open right there.
Q. How many did you see ripped open? A. I cannot tell you.
Q. Did you see more than one? A. More than fifty.
Q. Did you do anything to stop them? A. I put men on guard to keep them away.
Q. Did you arrest any men? A. No, sir, I didn't know who they were.
Q. How many instances of that kind did you see there? A. I cannot exactly tell you; I saw several.
Q. Did you see them take the contents out of the grip-sacks? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. But you didn't stop them? A. I couldn't stop them. What could I say?
Q. What time of day was this? A. It was about daylight.
Q. I take it that you were very busy rendering assistance, and didn't stop to see what they were doing. Was there much talk there about this robbery going on? A. Yes, a good deal. I heard it afterwards.
Q. You stayed there until the next day; did you stay there until the wounded were all taken care of? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any efforts that were made by the company to get assistance there for the wounded, and take care of the dead? A. I think they did all they could.
Q. They sent for you and told you to bring physicians? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you know about their sending elsewhere? A. I know they sent to Chatsworth, Piper City and Watseka, and all over.
Q. Did any physicians come there with Mr. Gould? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any others coming from Peoria? A. There were several there from Peoria; I didn't notice very particularly.
By Commissioner Marsh—Q. How, in your opinion, did that fire originate? A. I believe it was set on fire.
Q. State why you think that? A. The right of way on the South side was burned out, and the wind was blowing from the Southwest all that night. On the North side of the track there was corn planted on the right of way, and outside of this corn is a stubble field; and if the section men had set fire around there, it would have burned the stubble field that night.
Q. When was it burned on the South side of the bridge? A. It must have been three weeks before that.
Q. Did you see when that was done? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you see that it was done? A. Every day when I went along the track.
Q. When did you walk along the track by that bridge? A. About a week before that.
Q. Anybody with you? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Was the grass burned out from under the bridge? A. Yes, sir, cut out with the shovels from both sides of the bridge.
Q. How far North from the bridge did the fire extend? A. Just as far as the bridge went. Just as far as the timbers.
Q. Any beyond? A. No, sir.
Q. Don't you think a spark might have fallen from the engine and set it on fire? A. I was on the last engine, and if that set it on fire, the men would have seen it.
Q. How long a train was that on which you passed over the bridge? A. Eighteen or twenty cars.
Q. At what rate of speed did you go over? A. Fifteen or sixteen miles an hour.
Q. What direction? A. East.
Q. Is it an up grade after crossing the bridge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. One engine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Cars loaded? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They would have to put on a pretty good fire to get up that grade? A. No, sir, the grade is short.
By Commissioner Rogers—Q. What kind of grass grows around that bridge? A. It is what you call slough grass and weeds; it is not this fine grass.
Q. That prairie grass don't get dry very quick—it was in a condition that you couldn't very well burn it off like you could blue grass? A. There was not very much to burn off.
Q. When you went over that track you say you don't know whether you were looking particularly at that bridge. Do you usually sit in the car and look back? A. I usually stand right up on the platform at the hind end.
Q. Does it ever happen in going over a bridge with an engine that sparks set fire to it? A. Yes, sir, sometimes. I don't think an engine set that bridge on fire, because they never rake out their fire crossing bridges.
Q Could the fire get out without stopping and raking it out? A. Not without punching it up.
Q. You considered that a safe bridge? A. Yes, sir.